Marquis de Lafayette, part one (with Allison Epstein)

In this instalment of How Do You Solve A Problem Like Marie Antoinette, we look at a man who really annoyed her: the Marquis de Lafayette. And joining us to share the legendary life of this dirtbag (complimentary) is friend of the podcast Allison Epstein!

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Transcript

Vulgar History Podcast

Marquis de Lafayette, Part One (with Allison Epstein) 

October 16, 2024

Ann: Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and this is Season Seven, Part Two: How Do You Solve A Problem Like Marie Antoinette? where we are slowly learning about the world that Marie Antoinette lived in, and eventually, when we get to her story, we’ll have so much context for it. It’s really exciting for me because, this part especially, the stories are intertwining. Like, people I’ve talked about before are showing up again, and it’s like, oh! It’s kind of starting to feel like that Mary Queen of Scots sees in a bit where you’re like, “Oh, that person! Oh, that person!” It’s like, there’s characters who recur. 

One of those recurring characters is the Marquis of Lafayette, a person who I never knew existed until Hamilton, the musical, and I’m like, “Why is there a French character in this? I don’t know.” I didn’t really look into why there was a French character in it because I didn’t care. But anyway, it turns out Lafayette is a big fave of one of your faves, a guest we have not had on the show for almost a year, Allison Epstein, welcome. 

Allison: Thank you for having me back. It has been a long time, and I’m here to get excited about my boy. 

Ann: And I do want to mention, like, you know, feminist women’s history comedy podcast, and sometimes we talk about other genders. Last time, we were talking about Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, today we’re talking about Lafayette because, you know, it’s kind of like when you see… I think of traditional history is, like, men’s history. When you see those lists that are, like, “The hundred most important people in the world,” and it’s like men plus like… 

Allison: Elizabeth I. Yeah. [laughs

Ann: And Joan of Arc. And I’m like, well, that’s kind of men’s history. So, that proportion, I think, it’s kind of like this podcast is almost always about women, but sometimes it’s not. 

Allison: And I will say that like we probably wouldn’t have done a Lafayette episode had he not appeared in 19 of the past 25 episodes that you’ve done. Like, he is insisting upon being on this podcast. 

Ann: He’s here. Well, and then he’s your guy. Can you explain about the fan fiction of it all? Did you not write Lafayette fan fiction as a young person? 

Allison: Okay. I need to explain… I need to put that sentence in context because it sounds insane. But yes. I had a very good history teacher in the fifth grade, which is when we started learning, like, colonial American history. I had terrible teachers before and after that, but fifth grade was, like, a really good history year and that was when we did the American Revolution. 

One of the assignments in that class was to keep a journal through all of the historical events that you’re learning about as if you’re one of the people in the events you’re reading about. Like, pretend you’re a colonist who’s experiencing the American Revolution. And I, being who I am, said, “Why would I be a colonist when I could be the Marquis de Lafayette?” And so, I wrote the entire American Revolution from the point of view of the Marquis de Lafayette as a fifth grader. For some reason, people are surprised I turned out the way I did but he was my favourite. He’s the best. And I don’t normally encourage stanning historical figures because they’re all problematic, but he’s surprisingly unproblematic the longer you go. 

Ann: And that’s sort of… Like, I came to learn about who he was because I did, especially he shows up in like the Sally Hemmings episode, like, he’s there in France with Thomas Jefferson. I mean, I have a couple of notes, like, you have your long notes, but I went through control F, like, I’ve talked about him before. [Allison laughs] He was in the Peggy Shippen episode just kind of, like, causing havoc. He’s just been there to the point where it’s like, well, we need to learn who this person is. Why was he involved in the French Revolution and also the American Revolution? And for reasons you’re going to talk about. So, you’ve written about him in your Substack. He is… Would you consider him a dirtbag? 

Allison: He is the least dirtbaggy dirtbag that I’ve ever profiled at my Substack, Dirtbags Through the Ages. I think of him as a dirtbag with a heart of gold, which is that he means so aggressively well that sometimes he’s going to do the dumbest thing possible, but always for noble reasons. He’s just, like, crusading forward with two brain cells and an idea about justice and I love that for him. 

Ann: So, you have various notes and this is… Like, you’re going to be leading this discussion and I will jump in with questions and I have, I think, two points, [Allison laughs] two things that I’m going to say just to remind everybody of where we’ve seen him doing stuff before. But can you explain— Wait, his name is…. [Allison laughs] What’s his name? 

Allison: His name is too much. His name is Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette, because he’s rich. [laughs]

Ann: We’re going to call him Lafayette. 

Allison: Yes, we are. I’m never saying that name again. 

Ann: Although I do like that his name is Gilbert, like in Anne of Green Gables. So, who is this guy? 

Allison: Yes, I told Ann before this that I put together entirely too many notes. So, I am prepared for anything that may come up in this conversation because when I love somebody, I go too hard. So, warning to the listeners. But our boy Lafayette was born in 1757 in the city of Chavaniac-Lafayette in France, which is how you know he’s fancy because he was born in the city with his name in it. 

Ann: That’s like Peggy Shippen from Shippensburg. Yeah. 

Ann: Exactly. Like, his parents were fancy, they were rich. They were Marquis and Marchioness…? I’ve never known really what the gender alternative to that is. 

Ann: I don’t know how you say it. 

Allison: No, but it will be unsurprising to your listeners to know that both his mother and his father each have approximately nine first names as well. So, this is a family tradition. 

His father was fairly well known at the time for being this noble military hero who would also sort of just rush off into danger in the name of justice. This is a family trait, this went back to Joan of Arc; his great, great, whatever grandfather fought alongside Joan of Arc. So, they’ve always been like this is what I’m saying. But when Lafayette was two years old, so 1759, his father died at the Battle of Minden during the Seven Years’ War in Westphalia, which I know you’re familiar with due to your research into a Caroline of Brunswick, which we were talking about just before this. 

Ann: Westphalia is Germany-ish. 

Allison: Everything is Germany-ish for so long. Germany does not make sense to me or to anyone else. It makes sense to Lana Wood Johnson and no one else. So, at this point, Lafayette is 2 years old and now also the Marquis de Lafayette, which in most Vulgar History stories that we’ve talked about is a recipe for bad news, no one wants a baby to be in charge of anything. But it’s actually going to be okay so that’s sort of nice. He lives with his mom and his grandmother, I think, until Lafayette grows up to be about 11, and then he moves to Paris and signs up as a musketeer in the service of the French King Louis XV. 

Ann: I’m so sorry, he is 11? 

Allison: He is 11 years old, yes.

Ann: Is that the age of musketeers usually? 

Allison: It is indeed not. No. 

Ann: Okay, okay. Was he very tall? 

Allison: No. [laughs]

Ann: Okay. 

Allison: Was he very good at this at this age? No. But did he have the spirit? Yes, he did, which we know because he achieved the rank of second lieutenant when he was 13-and-a-half years old. 

Ann: So, this is… Was everyone just like, “Oh, he’s so cute. Let’s just let him do it.” Okay.

Allison: Yeah. This was not this was not a combat role. He was supposed to hold a musket and walk in parades and go to parties. But, like, this just illustrates who he was as a little baby. He’s just like, “I would like to be a soldier and be a good person and save people.” He’s just the cutest little bean. 

Ann: And it also, I presume, speaks to the fact that he was charming and people let him do this. Because I don’t think every 11-year-old who showed up would be allowed to do this, let alone get a promotion. 

Allison: No, it also helps that he’s incredibly rich and very powerful. 

Ann: Yes. Yes, yes, okay. 

Allison: Every single piece of privilege a person can have, the Marquis de Lafayette has. So, his Sexism Bonus is 0; his classism bonus is 0. So, he’s thriving, but he’s using it to get involved in the musketeers. His mother dies when he is 13. So now, he is an orphan baby musketeer and I think he still lives with his grandma for a while, but schools in the 1700s were just, like, you move in and so he was basically fine at that point. 

But when he turns 14, it becomes time for him to find a wife because he’s rich and famous and fancy and has lots of money. Not that we do talk about this in lots of your episodes, but children are getting engaged to be married at this time all the time. It’s no big deal. It’s a political situation. 

Ann: Yeah, and they don’t actually move in with their spouse and, like, are expected to have children until they’re, like, much older. 

Allison: This is just, like, “There’s a very rich 14-year-old walking around. We should figure out what’s going to happen to him.” 

Ann: It’s like financial planning, really. 

Allison: Exactly. And I’ve talked to you about this part of the story before because I love it. This is the most adorable little love story in history. 

Ann: But I didn’t know he was 14 when it happened! 

Allison: He was 14! [laughs] It’s really cute. Okay, so when Lafayette is 14, there’s this other nobleman in Paris called the Duke de Noailles, who has a daughter, Marie Adrienne. And he says, “You know who would be a great husband for my daughter? This incredibly rich baby soldier, that would be a perfect match.” So, he’s trying to, like, go behind the scenes and machinate so that they can get together but Marie Adrienne’s mom says, “I want my daughter to marry someone she actually likes. I don’t want to force her into a marriage and I also don’t want to force this adorable baby soldier into a marriage either.” 

So, what she does is she casually arranges these meet-cutes all over Paris. So, they show up together at the same parties and they, like, go for walks in the park together and they’ll, like, show up at a concert. And over, like, two to three years, they actually become best friends and then fall in love and then they agree to get married in 1774 when he’s 17 and Marie Adrienne is 15. They love each other devotedly. They are passionately in love with each other for the rest of their lives. They are besties. It is the cutest fucking thing in the whole world. I love it. 

Ann: That is unprecedented on this podcast… 

Allison: Yeah, I know! 

Ann: … in terms of in terms of wholesomeness. 

Allison: It’s so wholesome and she’s such a good person and he’s such a wife guy through this entire story. I will point it out as we go but, like, every five or ten years he’s in the most tumultuous historical period ever, and he just keeps going, “I’m sorry, I have to go home and say hi to my wife. I will be back later.” It’s just [sighs] they’re so good for each other and it makes me happy. Unfortunately, Marie Adrienne’s dad is a dick who doesn’t love fun or revolution so he’ll thwart things as we go, but love conquers all in the story. 

So, when they’re newly married, Lafayette moves into Marie Adrienne’s father’s house because he doesn’t have a house or a father or anything. He just has the Palace of Versailles and being a musketeer. Eventually, at this point, he’s a legal adult, so he does get an actual army commission instead of just walking in parades. And then he and Marie Adrienne have their first child two years later. She passes away shortly after that due to infant mortality reasons, but they waited until it was a reasonable time to start doing that. And then it’s 1774, and we get a brand new king in France. King Louis XV passes away. 

Ann: Number XV! 

Allison: Yes. 

Ann: Wait, wait. So, we get, wait… In the Madame du Barry, I learned the difference between XIV, XV, and XVI. So, which one is this? 

Allison: XV just died, we’re heading into XVI. 

Ann: XVI. Marie Antoinette’s husband. 

Allison: Marie Antoinette’s husband, yes. 

Ann: Okay, got it. Yeah. 

Allison: So, for context, Lafayette is 17 and Marie Antoinette is 18 so they are virtually the same age. So, Louis XVI becomes king and, sort of, in that time period, the American Revolution is just starting to bubble. It’s 1775, 1776. And I’m not going to go into the whole American Revolution of it all because you’ve already done that for your listeners. 

Ann: You know what? That’s another thing that I’m just like, “I can’t believe I have to learn this.” 

Allison: I know! [laughs] I was like, “Ann’s learning about George Washington. I know she hates it!” 

Ann: Yeah. 

Allison: But in France, the American Revolution was sort of a point of interest but not, like, a huge deal. 

Ann: Were they, like, excited because they were enemies with England and the French Revolution was enemies with England? So, they’re just like, “Yeah, fuck you, England! We love this.” 

Allison: Exactly. It was “Oh, something bad’s happening to England. That’s delightful. I hope that continues.” But Lafayette, of course, being the kind of kid he was, was like, “Yes, it’s bad for England and that’s fun. But also, there are these oppressed people fighting for liberation from an oppressive force and I think I would like to go help them because of who I am as a person.” So, he got super jazzed and wanted to, like, run off and join the American Revolution. France did not want that to happen because even though France was enthusiastic about the American Revolution, if it started sending soldiers and officers and warships, that’s a declaration of war against England and you sort of have to be ready if that’s going to happen. And Louis XVI had been king for two years and wasn’t super ready to start declaring war on other countries yet.

So, the king sent a bunch of French nobles on a diplomatic mission to London in 1777, basically to say, “Hi, we’re aware that you’re having a problem over there in America and we are not going to get involved. We’re going to remain neutral. Don’t worry about it.” They sent Lafayette on this mission, which was a mistake. 

Ann: Was he, at this point, what? Like, 18 years old? He’s still very young. 

Allison: He’s very, very young and very in love with his own ideas. And so, instead of going to, like, the palace to talk to the king and say, “Hey, everything’s fine,” he ran off and wrote a letter to his father-in-law, the Duke, to say, “Sorry, I’m actually going to run away to America to fight in the French Revolution. I hope that’s not a problem.” And then he started raising money to buy his own warship so that he could sail over there by himself and join the Revolution. 

Ann: Wait, and he’s raising money? He’s in England while he’s doing this? 

Allison: Yes. 

Ann: Okay.

Allison: He doesn’t need to raise a ton of money because he’s rich as hell. 

Ann: He has a lot of money. 

Allison: He’s got a lot of money to start with, yeah. This is not a challenge. His father-in-law is pissed because this is ruining his life and his family’s life and also, I hate him. So, he, the father-in-law, writes to the king and says, “I would like you to issue a proclamation that all French officers are forbidden expressly from serving in the American Revolution,” and the king did. The proclamation said something like “All French officers, especially the Marquis de Lafayette, are forbidden from serving in the American Revolution.” And Lafayette said, “That’s nice. I am 95 percent of the way to a warship anyway so I’m just going to keep doing it and hope nobody stops me.” 

He buys his warship, called the Victoire, and it cost him £112,000, which I did the conversion on because I’m always curious, and that’s $12.6 million! So, this boy is committed. He starts outfitting the ship for war. He, like, fills it with cannons and gunpowder, and then he sends a quick note to his wife, Marie Adrienne, and says, “I am going to war. How’s your dad taking it?” The answer is “Not well.” The dad sends family friends after Lafayette to say, “If you send the ship toward America, you’re going to be in enormous trouble. Also, we got you an officer’s commission with the battalion in Marseille so you have to go there and if you don’t, it’s treason. So, please go off to Marseille and mind your business.” 

But this is my favourite Lafayette anecdote of the whole story, actually. This is where he qualifies, in my brain, as a dirtbag, because he looks at the family friend and says, “Great, I will go to Marseille. I will mind my business. Don’t worry about it.” And he rides with the family friend about two miles toward Marseille and then as soon as the family friend gets out of eyeshot, he turns around, [both laugh] sneaks back through the forest, goes back to the port and says, “Hey, ship. Take off for America.” He’s not on the ship because he knows as soon as that ship gets to, like, the port leaving toward, the last port toward America, like, the end of Spain, it’s going to get searched because the dad is going to be looking for him. So, he sneaks cross country to, like, Basque and then after the ship gets searched for the last time, he hops on at the very last possible minute, under cover of darkness and sails away to America, running away to his revolution. And you imagine him flipping both middle fingers at his father-in-law from the deck as he sails. And I just… He’s such a little dick and I love him. [giggles]

Ann: But, like, he’s got a plan and he’s good at it. You know, there’s been so many stories in this podcast about people trying to do sneaky shit like that, but they always mess up. But he, like, had it all figured out. 

Allison: Yeah, it was flawlessly executed. He was 18 years old, and he had a scheme and a plan and a warship.

Ann: He had been a soldier since age 11 and he put that experience to use. 

Allison: Absolutely. 

Ann: So, he’s on the warship and the warship’s coming to America. 

Allison: Yes. The warship lands in America in 1777. So, the Revolution is well underway at this point, like, the Declaration of Independence was the year before, George Washington is in charge of the Continental Army, and at this point, it’s sort of not going so great. The American Revolution was basically a bunch of farmers with, like, their hunting rifles pretending to be an army; they’d never been trained before, and no one really knew how to do anything. And George Washington was absolutely fed up with the quality of soldiers that he had. He had been in, like, the Seven Years’ War, he knew how to command things, but nobody knew what they were doing. So, when Lafayette showed up and said, “Hello, I am an 18-year-old soldier who’s been in the army for eight years. And also, I have a warship and 12.6 million dollars. Would you like any help with your army?” he was on board immediately. Like, George Washington and the Marquis de Lafayette sort of met at a party one night and from there, it was a bro love sort of for the rest of their days together. 

Lafayette was an 18-year-old orphan who just wanted to be loved and Washington was a childless general who sucked in a lot of ways, as you’ve discussed, but, like, they have this really lovely father-son sort of relationship through their whole lives that is problematic given how messed up George Washington is, but is also very sweet because Lafayette just wanted a dad to look up to. So, I sort of love that for them. 

So, Lafayette is now fully in the army. He’s not given, like, a division of soldiers to oversee because he’s a foreign citizen who had just kind of showed up so that would be problematic. But he does start fighting pretty much right away and he is immediately, like, the most useful person in most of these early American Revolution battles. 

Ann: Because he, like, has actual skills at, like, fighting. 

Allison: Yeah! He knows, like, strategy and tactics and also, he is obsessed with running headfirst into danger to do the most dramatic thing you can. Like, he’s got no self-preservation instinct and military training. He’s the perfect person to have. 

Ann: I could see this story, like, this could be not a good story if he was just a person who ran… Like, a rich kid who ran off to the army, age 11, and thought he was good, but he wasn’t. But he actually was good! 

Allison: Yeah! He was good and he also didn’t need to be in command of everything. He’s just like, “Put me in, coach. Where do you need me to be useful? I want to fight for freedom.” He’s truly, like, the most naive child you’ve ever heard of, except who’s also very good with the sword and a gun. 

Ann: Yeah. Yeah!

Allison: I’m not going to go through all of the American Revolution battles that he was in because you don’t care and I don’t care. 

Ann: Please don’t. 

Allison: So, I’m not going to do that. 

Ann: But he did well and he became like a hero, right? Like people… America loved him. 

Allison: Yeah. He was, like, wounded in action at a battle, but saved his entire regiment before organizing retreat. Like, he was great. People are big fans, glad this guy showed up. 

One of the interesting things that happened at this point was, I don’t know, your non-American listeners probably you’re not familiar with the winter at Valley Forge, but every elementary school American student has to learn about it. 

Ann: I’m also not familiar. I’m a non-American. 

Allison: Yes. So, it was 1777, 1778. So, like, almost a year after he had arrived and it was winter and winter, like, for an under-provisioned army with shitty uniforms and nowhere to stay. This is, like, “the Dark Night of the Soul” for the American army, basically. 

Ann: Wait, where is Valley Forge? Where is it now? Like, what state? 

Allison: I want to say Pennsylvania. 

Ann: Okay, so it’s, like… Winter is very cold. 

Allison: Winter is like foot-and-a-half of snow and you don’t have boots is, like, the image they always give people. It’s like real. Lafayette, who very well could have been like, “I’m going to go somewhere else for this winter, I’m going to go to Virginia and, like, stay at Mount Vernon and get warm and then come back later.” But he stayed with his men all winter and paid for new uniforms for everybody in his regiment so they could be warm. 

Ann: Like, polar fleece uniforms with, like, Gortex. Yeah, yeah. 

Allison: Exactly. [laughs] And that was the moment in fifth grade when I was like, “Oh no, he’s my boy. I love him.” That, I swooned for that. 

So, the winter thaws, people are getting ready for the spring battle season and he fights for about another year until he says, “Actually, do you all mind if I go back to France for a few months because I really, really miss my wife? I would like to say hi to her,” and he does. He goes back to France in late 1778 just to hang out with Marie Adrienne for a while. 

Ann: Right. But like, how does that go? He gets back to France, like, his father-in-law is mad. He’s done treason by not going to Marseille. Like… 

Allison: Yeah, I mean, this is what you were saying earlier. Like, he has to be incredibly charming for this to work because he is put under house arrest when he comes back for eight days. And after that, King Louis XVI is like, “Actually, you’re so charming. I’m not mad at you. Would you like to go hunting with me?” And then he goes on a hunting trip with the king. 

Ann: This is like… These sorts of stories are so interesting to me. Like, when people like… So, I just did, a few weeks ago, we were doing the Madame du Barry episode and it’s, like, people say, “Oh, she was beautiful,” or whatever. But, like, the way that she was treated by people like… You know what her magnetism was. Even if people, you know, sometimes they say like, “Oh, this person was so charismatic,” and you look at a portrait and you’re like, “Were you?” And people write in letters and diaries like, “Oh, this person was so great.” But in this story, like with Madame du Barry, like, you know how hot she was because of how the world reformed around her whenever she entered a room. 

With Lafayette, like, you know how charming he was because of things like this. It’s like, you could say, “Oh, he was charming.” It’s like the king invited him out hunting after he did treason. [Allison laughs] Yeah, like this is how charming this guy was. Yeah. It’s very illustrative. And you and you want to hang out with him. Like, it just sounds like he’s just such a fun time. 

Allison: Yes. I have in here that you have a Lafayette 1778 story that you wanted to share. 

Ann: I do. Yes. So, 1778, this is from the Peggy Shippen episode. So, there was in 1778, that was when… So, Philadelphia had been, like, the red coats had taken over the city, basically and then there was this party, the Mischianza, which was organized by hot spy and my boy, John André. 

Allison: I also love John André, hot spy. 

Ann: Hot, inept spy. 

Allison: He’s the worst spy, but he’s so handsome. 

Ann: And he was also a party planner. And, like, since the days of David Rizzio, like, I just love a party planner moment. Anyway, so he planned this pretty called the Mischianza and then there was a whole thing about like— Oh, no, it was the… God, I forget. Honestly, like, listeners, I do an episode and then two hours later, I forget everything I did. But basically, there was this party and it became very controversial because I think there was not enough hot girls to go so then Peggy Shippen and her sisters were invited. It was this big thing. It’s like Peggy Shippen attended the Mischianza and does that mean that she was a sympathizer for the red coats? It’s like, “No, it just meant that she was hot and liked to party.” 

Allison: She loved to party girl, that girl.  

Ann: So, while this party was going on, being held by the, like, British red coats side, Lafayette and friends were protesting it by being in the harbour. They poured kettles of whale oil onto the British barriers, ignited them, and then slipped away. So, this is just the kind of nonsense he was up to. 

Allison: He was leading real battles and then he was just causing mischief and mayhem and I love that.

Ann: Like, that’s got a big sort of like frat brothers energy to it. It’s just, like, your rival school is having a party so you just, like, go and set the whale oil on fire on their ships. 

Allison: Yes! And he’s what, like, 21 at this time? Perfect age for frat boys. 

Ann: Yeah, exactly. It’s a big frat boy energy. And now I’m picturing him and the bros, like, the soldiers, just these guys just been like, “Yeah, yeah!” 

Allison: “Let’s go!” 

Ann: Hyping each other up. Yeah, “One, two, three, Lafayette!” Like, that’s the energy. So yeah, I remembered I came across Lafayette, and I think that was a story where I was like, “Who’s this guy?” when I encountered that. Yeah, just casual burning of things to protest a party that he was philosophically opposed to. Meanwhile, Peggy Shippen is just like, “Wooo!” Tits out. [Allison laughs] Just, like, having a time. 

Allison: There’s a there’s a scale and Peggy Shippen’s on one side and the Marquis de Lafayette is on the other side and it’s all justice and I don’t give a fuck about justice. 

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. And they were both there at the same place at the same time. And this is what I mean when I said in the introduction, like, I love how the people from all these episodes are starting to intertwine with each other and, like, knowing who they are. Yeah. 

Allison: Awesome. 

Ann: So, he’s back in France. 

Allison: So, back in France, yes. His wife has just had one baby, a daughter, Anastasie, and she will have another baby nine months after he leaves to go back to America because they are the way that they are. So, bless these two horny, young adults. But while he’s in France and not having sex with his wife who he loves a lot, he is trying to get the French King to, sort of, more formally support the American Revolution which Louis XVI still doesn’t want to do. 

Ann: Well, Louis XVI, I haven’t learned about him a lot yet, but I feel like I watched, ages ago, the Sofia Coppola movie and it’s Jason Schwartzman, and he’s just kind of like, “Meh,” and I feel like that’s just Louis XVI is just kind of like… just useless, just kind of like placeholder, not really anything. But I did want to clarify that Lafayette is, like, chilling at Versailles. He’s in high society, like, doing all the stuff. And if he’s talking to the king, he’s, like, in a room… 

Allison: Yeah, he’s, like, showing up at court, at formal court events, being like, “Hi, it’s me, the Marquis de Lafayette, the fanciest man who just committed treason. Don’t worry about it.” 

Ann: Yeah. So, he’s, like, in the Versailles of it all. Yeah. 

Allison: Yes. And while he’s trying to petition the king for all the support, he teams up with the American ambassador to France who is at this time, Benjamin Franklin. Sorry, not Thomas Jefferson. [laughs]

Ann: Augh! No, Benjamin… I want to make a clarifying statement on this podcast, officially. So, in one of the American episodes I did, I had misunderstood something that either you or Lana had told me about Benjamin Franklin. I think what it was was one of you had said that he was the least racist or, like, the least slave-owning-ist of the Founding Fathers. 

Allison: He is not the most least slave-owning-ist, but among a select few of them who were, like, not in favour, yeah. 

Ann: And so, I misinterpreted that as that he was the least awful of them…

Allison: Oh no.

Ann: … which is not true. No. He was… Well, do you remember how you described him to me? 

Allison: I described him as America’s horny grandpa, which is correct. 

Ann: Yeah. So, I want to say, like, Benjamin Franklin is not the best Founding Father. I might have said that on the podcast, I would like to retract that statement. I recall that statement. There was, like, a TikTok… I feel like, I forget who I’ve been messaging with about what, but it was either on the Discord or Lana had shared it and it was, like, if Benjamin— You know, there’s a whole thing about like, what were the founding fathers want us to do today? And someone did a TikTok that was like, “Okay, what do you think about this and, like, the First Amendment?” And Benjamin Franklin was like, “Can we go to Hooters again?” 

Allison: [laughs] And that’s correct!  

Ann: He is, yeah, America’s horny grandpa. Also, there was that TV show recently-ish, there was, like, Michael Douglas played Benjamin Franklin. Good casting, because Michael Douglas, I’ve always felt, is like a gross horny grandpa-type person. 

Allison: Yes. Although, I didn’t watch it but I was texting with my parents who did watch it because of who they are as people and they were furious because there was not one tiny bit of weird horny grandpa energy. It was like, “Oh, distinguished Founding Father, Ben Franklin.” And they were like, “Where is the man who was just sitting naked in front of the window in his bedroom because he thought the cool night air on his privates was good for health?” 

Ann: I love your parents and I understand your personality better now. [Allison laughs] And also, you cast Michael Douglas! He’s got a grimy, sleazy quality, like, no shade to Michael Douglas. But like, that’s… It’s like Willem Dafoe; you don’t cast him to be, like, some sort of noble person. No, that’s not the affect they…

Allison: No, choices were made.

Ann: What I do know about that Benjamin Franklin show, which again, I did not and will never watch, is that it was one of the first appearances in film of the Chevalier d’Éon! 

Allison: Ayyy! Which we love to see. 

Ann: Which I’m always happy, I’m happy to see. And it sounds like it was an okay portrayal of a trans person. 

Allison: We’ll take it. We’ll take it. 

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. 

Allison: Okay. So, Ben Franklin. [Ann groans] [Allison laughs

Ann: Is he on your money? 

Allison: He’s on the hundred-dollar bill, yeah. 

Ann: Not cool. Not cool. 

Allison: It’s better than Andrew Jackson, it could be worse. 

Ann: I don’t know anything about that one but okay. 

Allison: He killed probably hundreds of thousands of Native Americans in a really intentional genocide and he’s on the twenty. 

Ann: Is he? Oh, this is why it’s good… Do people in America lately mostly just, like, use your phone or just like tap your card and like not use cash? 

Allison: Yeah, I haven’t seen a twenty-dollar bill in ages, which is good. 

Ann: You know, it’s the same here because you know, it’s on our money is King Charles III. 

Allison: Ohhh! I’m so sorry. 

Ann: A man who was recorded on tape saying he wanted to be Camilla Parker Bowles’s tampon. 

Allison: I recall that from season whatever of The Crown and I almost cringed out of my body. 

Ann: He is on our money so… 

Allison: Congrats. 

Ann: Okay, so Benjamin Franklin is… 

Allison: He is the ambassador to France. 

Ann: Yes, yes, yes. 

Allison: And he’s working with Lafayette to, like, get support for the American Revolution. 

Ann: Wait! Benjamin Franklin, I picture being 65 years old, I don’t know.

Allison: Yes, you’re correct. 

Ann: I feel like he was… He’s, like, the oldest Founding Father-type guy. Lafayette is at this point, I’m going to say 22, I don’t know. 

Allison: Yeah, roughly. [laughs

Ann: So, he’s just like, “Hey! Let’s work together.” 

Allison: And like, “Yeah, absolutely. Afterwards, we’re going to go to Hooters, right?” And Lafayette’s like, “No, no, no. I love my wife. Don’t worry about it.” So, the king does not make, like, a formal declaration of war because he’s meh, but he does agree that Lafayette can take a fleet of ships and 6,000 French soldiers back to America, which is somehow not the same thing as declaring war. I don’t know what the difference is, but listeners might be familiar with this as the song “Guns and Ships” from the Broadway musical Hamilton

Ann: Yeah, we’re getting into some real Hamilton stuff. And please mention all the Hamilton connections as they come up because you know the show better than I do. 

Allison: Yes. 

Ann: When I first heard the music of Ham— Like, when I first became aware of it, it was I was in a Tumblr era and it was all that anyone on Tumblr is talking about. And I’m like, “What is this show?” And I’m like, “Oh! These songs are catchy. These are good. Don’t know what this plotline is. Don’t know who any of these people are.” And at the time I was trying to… I remember I was listening to it when I was, like on a flight, like, back to Nova Scotia for Christmas and I just listened to the soundtrack and I’m like, “Yeah, this is so good!” Sorry, cast recording. [Allison laughs] And I was trying to tell my friends, I’m like, “No, you should listen to it.” And I was trying to describe. I’m like, “It’s kind of like Jesus Christ Superstar, where there’s like a guy and he’s jealous of another guy and then he kind of causes his death. And that was what I took from it.” But there’s all this American history stuff that I don’t understand that actually is the story of it. I had never heard of Alexander Hamilton or anyone in that musical, except for maybe George W and Thomas J. 

Allison: Yes. 

Ann: Lafayette, I was just like, how? Daveed Diggs…

Allison: Why is he here? [laughs

Ann: He’s great. Who’s this French person rapping? 

Allison: And, like, I have opinions about the portrayal of the Marquis de Lafayette in Hamilton, which is that “Guns and Ships” is the most accurate Lafayette moment in that entire show, because it’s where he has the most swag and he’s just like, “Everybody look at me and how incredible I am. Let me do the most impressive rap in all of musical theatre.” The rest of it, he’s just like, “Yes, I am a noble Frenchman who doesn’t speak great English.” And I’m like, where’s the dirtbag energy from this man?! Where is he out in the harbour, lighting shit on fire? Like, I want more from him is what I’m saying. 

Ann: Lafayette, I mean, this comes up for me, personally, a lot when I’m doing a lot of these stories. But this one, I’m going to say, especially, especially given the American Revolution of it all, how is there not a movie of this? This is… 

Allison: Right?! Where is my Lafayette biopic? I’m furious that we don’t have one! 

Ann: How is there Michael Douglas is Benjamin Franklin in writing some treaties in France, the TV show, or whatever? Like, how is that the TV show they did and not Lafayette? Like, this is a great story and he’s on the side of the American Revolution. So, people would want to finance this. And he’s a white straight man. 

Allison: Yeah! And Timothy Chalomet is a working actor who speaks French and English! What are we doing, people? 

Ann: Timothy Chalomet, yes! [gasps] Now I’m picturing him and that’s perfect because he looks so young and gawky. 

Allison: Yeah, but he’d be such a good war hero. [laughs]

Ann: He’d be great, yeah. No, this is honestly baffling to me because there’s such a struggle to get biopics made of, like, women, let alone women of colour, people of colour, like, queer people. But this is like a straight, white man! 

Allison: This is a straight, white, rich, founding father who I’m, like, it’s right there! I don’t know. 

Ann: Huh. That’s bizarre. Okay, but yes, this is getting very dramatic. So, he’s back there. He’s got his troops. He’s in America again. So, the American Revolution, again, is still going on? 

Allison: Still going on. Yes, it’s 1780 at this point. I will continue to be [Allison laughs] needing to be reminded that the American Revolution did not happen just in 1776, that it was a lengthy, lengthy thing. 

Allison: It went on for a long time. 

Ann: Yeah, they didn’t just declare independence and that was kind of it. It was like, it went on. 

Allison: It went on and it went on badly. Like, because I was saying they’re very untrained and very unfinanced and things are, like… So, when he shows up back in America, things are not going great. I do want to sidebar, shortly after he left, but before he arrived in, like, December 1779, Marie Adrienne gives birth to their second surviving child, who they named George Washington Lafayette. [laughs] Listeners can’t see the face that Ann is making. 

Ann: [with French accent] George Washington… Marie Claire Jules Louis Pierre. 

Allison: [laughs] I think he only gave him the two names, but this, like, really underlines the weird father-son thing that they had going on. And that’s kind of cute. I don’t know. 

Ann: That’s true. I want to I want to share a story, which is similar to this, which is that a friend of mine does work with Doctors Without Borders, like, MSF, she goes to various places. And around the time that Obama was first elected, she was in, I want to say Ethiopia or South Sudan, anyway, it was an African country on the African continent, and she was helping people out there. And the women there were calling their daughters and maybe even sons, like, Michelle Obama, the First Lady of the United States. 

Allison: Oh my god, I love that so much! 

Ann: You know, Epstein. That was their name because they were so excited about Michelle Obama. 

Allison: I love that. That’s exactly the energy, except if they were also all best friends with Michelle Obama. I just love this person so much and I have adopted them as mine. 

Ann: So, George Washington Lafayette. Great. Great… Let me see. I don’t know when exactly this happened, but I do want to mention it was at around this time that Benedict Arnold did his treason. And this was where, this was also in my notes when I looked up Lafayette, which is, like, Benedict Arnold was in his, like, secret house out of the way, his treason house, and he knew that people were going to because John André, bad spy, hid the map in his boot, [Allison laughs] dressed the wrong way, got caught. 

Allison: He’s such a dummy! Oh my god. 

Ann: John André, hot spy.

Allison: It’s a good thing he’s pretty. 

Ann: Yeah. So, all this happened and then Peggy Shippen was left in the, like, forest woods house, and she’s like, “Oh fuck! My husband just did a treason.” And then Lafayette and I want to say Hamilton came to the door and they’re like, “Hey, is Benedict Arnold here?” And she’s like, “Ahhhh!” and she pretended to be having this hysterical, nervous breakdown to distract them so that Benedict Arnold could get away. Anyway, Lafayette was there at that dinner party where Peggy Shippen just was like, “Oh no, I’m having a mental breakdown and also I’m throwing all these letters in the fireplace for no reason!”

Allison: And as somebody who actually had schemes I’m just imagining him watching her like, “Umm… lady? What are you doing?” [laughs

Ann: Yeah, so Lafayette was there for that as well, I just wanted to connect that to that episode.

Allison: Yeah, that would be 1780. He gets back, like, early 1780 with all of his guns and all of his ships and they fight for another whole year with battles that we’re not going to talk about because blah, blah, blah, whatever. But by 1781, which is the year the American Revolution ends, spoiler,  it is time for the Battle of Yorktown, AKA the Act I finale of the Broadway musical Hamilton. It actually might not be the Act I finale, but it should be. That’s my hot take. 

So, Lafayette and Washington do some sort of military maneuver where they, like, come at Yorktown from two different directions and they, like, catch the British in between them, blah, blah, blah, tactics, et cetera. Lafayette is leading half the army, basically is the point. And the general of the British Army surrenders at Yorktown. And now Lafayette, aged 26, has just won the American Revolution. Hooray! Good for him. 

Ann: And he’s just getting started. 

Allison: We are on page four of nine of my notes. So yeah, for anybody else, this would be plenty for one lifetime. 

Ann: Well, no, and for anybody else, by the time this happened, he would be 56 years old. 

Allison: Right! He’s 26! He’s such a baby! 

Ann: And I was like, “Well, I guess time to retire. Like, I’ve had an active military career from age 11.” 

Allison: Yeah! You’re right. Usually in the story like this, either the person is 56 years old or they’re going to die in five years of some old timey illness and somehow Lafayette just keeps going and going and history keeps happening to him. 

Ann: Yeah. What’s the… “History has its eyes on him.” 

Allison: It does. He’s like, “History, could you please look at something else for a minute? I am very tired.” [both laugh] So, there’s lots of, like, treaty making and the Constitutional Convention and whatever that’s going on in America because, like, now they’re a country and they have to figure out how to be a country. Blah, blah, blah. 

Ann: I want to say just in terms of the blah, blah, blah, the Liberty Bell exists, like, just all this stuff that is kind of like, okay, I imagine this is what textbooks are like in America. 

Allison: Can I just brief sidebar on the Liberty Bell? Which is just such… It, like, exemplifies American-ness so much to me, which is that we built this bell and we’re like, “We’re going to ring it on the first day of Constitution because we’re so free and so great.” And we ring it once and it snaps in half because we did a shitty job and then we said, “This is the symbol of our nation,” and we put it in a museum and we’ve never rung it again because it would actually break if we tried. 

Ann: That’s what it is? 

Allison: Yeah. [laughs]

Ann: That’s what it is. 

Allison: Ohhh, this country is silly. 

Ann: In the Ona Judge episode. That was where it’s like, “We need to have the greatest museum of all time to display this bell.” 

Allison: “A shitty bell that we made badly.” [laughs

Ann: And then the, like, people of Philadelphia, the advocates were like, “Well, actually the place you’re going to hang this bell is actually the place where George Washington’s enslaved people lived. So, could you like make the museum about them?” And it’s like, “No! Bell!” 

Allison: “This terrible cracked bell you can’t use. Thanks, America.”

Ann: “This matters more!” 

Allison: [laughs] Yeah, that’s what we’ve got. Okay, so fortunately Lafayette didn’t care about that either. He is not hanging around for the Constitutional Convention of it all. 

Ann: He’s like, “My work here is done. There are no more battles to fight. I need to go home.“

Allison: “My work here is done. My hot wife is at home. I need to go.” And so, like, late 1781, he heads home, immediately gets his wife pregnant and they have their third baby, who they name Marie Antoinette. 

Ann: No! 

Allison: Yeah, they do. 

Ann: Wow! They’re really… Wow. Okay. 

Allison: Yeah. She’s born in 1782. 

Ann: Wait. But what’s… Didn’t Marie Antoinette hate him? 

Allison: Yes, but we’ll get to that. I will also say if the Queen hates you, a really nice way to say, “We don’t hate you, please don’t arrest us for treason,” is to name your baby after her. So, some of it was insurance. 

Ann: Okay. So, it’s not so much, like, a tribute to a woman who they admire and more just, like, “Let’s try to not be arrested.” Okay. 

Allison: No. But I will say, like, things get complicated a little bit in the in the France portion of this story with, like, what Lafayette’s political position is because, in America, he’s the most leftist lefty you’ve ever seen; he sailed across the country to fight a king and start a Democratic Republic. So, you would assume that he would carry that energy back to France, but he doesn’t really. He has a much different relationship with his own king and his own monarchy. 

Ann: Well, he’s like going hunting and just, like, hanging out at Versailles. 

Allison: Yeah, he’s one of the nobility and, like, we’ll get into it as we talk about it. But, like, this is always the part that surprised me when I started learning about this part because obviously, American public schools don’t teach you about the French Revolution. So, all I knew was American war hero Lafayette. When I started reading this, I was like, “This seems different from him.” But when you think about it, like you were saying, he is friends with the king and these are the people he grew up with and it’s just the world he knows. It’s different. 

Ann: Yeah, it’s easier to fight against tyranny and a monarch in a country that’s not your own, maybe. You can be more objective about it. 

Allison: I think so. Yeah. And he was also 18 years old at that time. So, you have to think maybe he didn’t have so much nuance to think about, now that he’s, like, in his late twenties, early thirties. 

Ann: He’s got a frontal lobe, et cetera.

Allison: [laughs] He’s like, “Hmm, maybe I should think this through.” Yeah. 

So, he gets a hero’s welcome in France which is hilarious, because technically he wasn’t even supposed to go. But he did just, like, overthrow the British king and since France hates Britain so much, they’re like, “Actually, this is fine. Nice job. Love this for you.” And there’s, like, five years where Lafayette gets to take a fucking break for a minute.

Ann: Good! Good. Just like, I don’t know what he did, but I imagine, like, taking up watercolour painting or like pottery or just, like, hanging out with all of his little children. 

Allison: Do you want to know what he did do? 

Ann: Oh, what did you do? 

Allison: He hung out with his three kids and he got really involved in the French abolition movement against slavery. 

Ann: Oh! Because he needs a cause. He’s a person who needs a cause. 

Allison: He needs a cause and he picked a fucking good one and god bless him. And also, he used this time and his close relationship with George Washington to try to talk to Americans to be like, “Can you stop having slaves, you dumb bitches? Look at the Constitution you just wrote.” He once said, I think later, as he had more time to think about it, but the quote attributed to him is, “I would never have drawn my sword in the cause of America if I could have conceived that I was founding a land of slavery.” Yeah! 

Ann: He’s on the right side. 

Allison: Yeah. And you imagine Martha Washington offscreen just going “[grumbles] This fucking adopted son I never liked.” He went back and forth to America a few times in these, like, five years of chill. And every time he was, like, “Hey, George Washington, free your slaves, bro. Please free your slaves.” He never did, but he tried. 

Ann: And George Washington was like, “What if I obsessively chase one of them?” 

Allison: Yeah. Yeah. So, that was his break. That was his abolition break. 

Ann: Okay, so he just sort of moved into sort of, like, social justice work. 

Allison: Yes. But then late 1786, 1787 came around. And this is what I call part two of this three-part story, the French Revolution part. 

Ann: Okay, this is really important because you need to explain the French Revolution to me. 

Allison: I am going to do my very best in an abridged version for the parts that matter for this story. But if you have other questions for other parts, I have tons of notes I do not need. So, we’ll get into it. 

Ann: Okay, can ask you a question? I don’t know if it’s this part or not but there’s a group of people in the French Revolution called the sans-culottes, which I think means no pants. [Allison laughs] What did they wear? 

Allison: It means no breeches, like, no tight pantaloons that you see in, like, period dramas. What they wore was like wide-legged, comfy pants. 

Ann: Oh! Okay, so it’s saying, like, no… 

Allison: No noble pants. It’s like, “I don’t wear the fancy breeches of the rich people, I wear the wide-legged trousers of the proletariat.” [laughs

Ann: No skinny jeans. Wide-legged pants. 

Allison: Yes. 

Ann: Okay. Because at first, I saw the sans-culottes and I’m like, “What are these guys wearing? Re we going out in our underoos? What’s happening? [Allison laughs] “We’re the sans-culottes and we’re in our underpants!” Okay. 

Allison: I mean, no pants no kings, we’re good to go! 

Ann: But they were actually, like, more pants. 

Allison: They wore maximum pants. What I will tell you is that every revolutionary in the French Revolution had a fucking costume going on. There was a uniform and it was wide-legged pants and a big old red, white, and blue rosette, and then a little red stocking cap, like a garden gnome. [giggles] It’s just, like, I don’t know why you needed that, but they are the French and they’re never going to stop being the French. 

Ann: There’s always going to be an outfit. Okay. No, that’s great. So, it’s like Palazzo pants. 

Allison: Exactly. 

Ann: Yeah. No capris, Palazzos. 

Allison: Palazzo’s only. No palaces, only Palazzos. [laughs] I’m sorry, that was terrible. 

Ann: No, that’s good. That’s great. Okay, so the French Revolution begins. What happens? 

Allison: Well, we’re leading up to it. This is the, like, what drove them towards the French Revolution starts… 

Ann: So, what you’re telling me is that the French Revolution, like the American Revolution, was not a single event that happened on one day. 

Allison: Alas, no. That would be much easier to talk about.

Ann: It was also a multi-year situation. Okay. 

Allison: Yes. And like all conflicts, unfortunately, it starts with the economy [Ann squirms] and I’m not going to get into the French economy because I don’t care and you don’t care and the listeners don’t care. But for context, it is a recession, things are not going great. People are starving. The weather is bad. 

Ann: The weather is weird. The weather is weird and that affected grain. Like, the farms. Because we’ve talked a bit on the podcast about there’s been this, like, weird… It’s not the little ice age, but it’s just, like, weather has been shitty for quite a while and when weather is shitty one year, then the farming is bad the next year, and then that affects the farming the next year, and it’s just kind of like, there’s not a lot of food. 

Allison: Right. And we’re also coming off, like, the Seven Years’ War was not that long ago, I think there were other wars in between there. So, like, the spending has not been very practical and also, there’s this decadent nobility that’s spending all of their money on, like, Versailles things. So, basically, economy is bad, people are starving, things are terrible. 

The King, King Louis XVI calls the Assembly of Notables in early 1787, which is basically, like, a gathering of all the rich and important people in France to figure out why the economy is busted. Lafayette is invited to this meeting, which I can only assume is because King Louis XVI forgot everything he ever knew about Lafayette as a person because Lafayette is immediately like, “You know what might fix this problem? A representative democracy. I think that might help.” This did not go over, but there were lots of debates. 

I’m going to give you, like, the highest, high-level version of this because I don’t know. But basically, the way that, like, the French government was managed, there was the King, obviously, who was in charge of everything. But underneath that, this Assembly of Notables was basically, like, three branches of people all sent representatives. And it was kind of like a half-ass parliament that didn’t really have a lot of power but had more broad representation. The three groups were the clergy, the nobility, and everybody who was not the clergy or the nobility. They all get one vote each and majority rules. So basically, the clergy and the nobility voted together on everything and the common people were just, like, also there. So, this was not great for democracy.

Ann: I want to say I’ve seen recently… So, first of all, there was the… something astrologically, I forget what it is exactly, was happening in that time period and is happening now in our time period as well, something. And then also, I’ve seen bar graphs, it’s great. People are sharing— People, listeners, share memes and things with me often and I appreciate it. They’ve started sharing memes with me about how the French Revolution era is similar to this era. And one of the things we’re showing the difference between the rich and poor on a bar graph is, like, very similar now to what it was in France at that time, just the difference between the, like, one percent and the everybody else. And the economy is bad and it’s just, like, okay, okay, familiar, familiar. 

Allison: Yeah, I have this tripartite assembly in my notes as it’s the electoral college. So basically, yeah, we’re doing all of this again. 

Ann: Yep, yep. 

Allison: But wildly, at this point, 1787, instead of teaming up with the rich people the way they always did, the clergy said, “Actually, we’re going to side with the common people, we’re going to form our own assembly. It’s going to be the National Assembly that’s more of a populace-based thing and we’re going to try to actually fix things for the common people because this economic crisis is so bad.” 

Ann: This is surprising to me because the clergy in France, I’m imagining Jonathan Pryce in The Affair of the Necklace, the movie… 

Allison: With all the billowing, yeah. 

Ann: With the billowing cloaks and the just, sort of like, you know, bribery and the like, yeah, like they are very much literally in bed with the nobility and just like, you know, rich people could pay to not have sins anymore and stuff. So, this is this is cool of the clergy. Surprising to me. 

Allison: Yeah, good for them! It is surprising. The nobility does not love this now because they’re the ones with the one disenfranchised vote. 

Ann: Are they the ones everyone else is like “Tax billionaires!”? 

Allison: And they’re like, “No, we’re the billionaires!” Yeah, exactly. [laughs] And so, Lafayette, my boy, goes over to the National Assembly with the clergy and the common people. And he’s like, “This is awesome. We’re going to start our own thing.” This goes on for a while because politics takes fucking forever. So, this kind of percolates along until 1789, when Lafayette comes back to the National Assembly, and presents the first draft of the Declaration of the Rights of Man, which he wrote in partnership with… 

Ann: Thomas Jefferson!

Allison: Thomas J! [laughs

Ann: So, I wanted to slide in here and say, this is the part where Thomas J was in Paris; Sally Hemmings was there, James Hemmings inventing macaroni and cheese. This is when… So, Lafayette was hanging out with Thomas Jefferson a lot, like, coming over to his house and they were, like, writing stuff. And Thomas Jefferson is like, “Yeah, I’m totally cool with abolition of slavery, doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo.” 

Allison: Yeah, “Declaration of the Rights of Man, except for these people that I brought with me to make my mac and cheese.” 

Ann: “Who are totally not enslaved by me.”

Allison: “Totally not going to have my children, don’t worry.” 

Ann: “Yeah, it’s totally illegal to have slaves in France so these are just my friends, the Hemmings siblings.” Anyway, so that was when this was happening. So, Sally Hemmings is in France at this very chaotic time. But also, she was in the household while Lafayette and Thomas Jefferson are writing this paperwork and stuff. 

Allison: And I think they got out of town shortly after this, right? Didn’t Thomas Jefferson look around and be like, “Something bad is going to happen. Should we skedaddle?” 

Ann: I think there was a really cold winter and there was all the stuff happening and they were like, “Let’s go back to Virginia now.” 

Allison: Yeah. Okay, they might make it another six months then because it is July 1789, which is the formal start of the French Revolution, which is when they present the Declaration of the Rights of Man at the National Assembly. Everyone’s all fired up, ready to go, and then this little bisexual asshole named Camille Desmoulins, who is my other favourite French Revolution person, says…

Ann: Is this a man or a woman? 

Allison: This is a man. 

Ann: Named Camille? 

Allison: Yeah, Camille. The French love a gender-neutral name. Remember Lafayette’s first name is Marie?

Ann: Marie, okay. 

Allison: So, Desmoulins is like “This is all going according to plan. However, I would like to make it more violent and faster because if we present this to the king, we’re not going to get fucking anywhere.” So, he gets a little citizen army together and they stormed the Bastille prison and try to break out all of the political prisoners, sort of, as a statement that, “Now we run Paris. Fuck the king.” And then things kind of go immediately to shit thereafter. This is the quatorze Juillet, Bastille Day. Like, France’s Independence Day was with this asshole being like, “I want this to happen faster and with more blood, please.” 

Ann: Oh yeah, Bastille Day. Yeah. 

Allison: Yeah. So, Lafayette is not a big fan of this approach, surprisingly. He was all for the right, the declaration and get the king to sign off and kind of go through the appropriate channels of power, and then we’ll be like, eventually, eventually a constitutional monarchy. Like, that was his end goal. And then this started to kind of go crazy. But he was still in, like, the National Assembly. He was still in it, and he wanted to sort of steer the ship as carefully as he could to get a liberal outcome without killing that many people. So, he was named Commander-in-Chief of the National Guard of Paris. 

Ann: And what is the National Guard?

Allison: Sort of like the citizen police. It was, like, the city cops, basically. His job was to stop people from revolutioning in the streets and, like, keep things nonviolent and okay, which is a terrible fucking job to give a person because this was… No one could have done this job. The Revolution was going to happen, no matter what. 

Ann: The momentum is there. It’s happening. 

Allison: Yes. So, like, throughout all of this, the National Assembly got everybody to sign off on the Declaration of the Rights of Man, which would have been, like, the new Constitution, and they sent it to the king and the king was like, “Fuck this. No, I’m not doing this. I am the king. I have a monarchy for a reason.” So, things just sort of keep getting tenser and worse until later in… go ahead.

Ann: I was going to say, I’ve seen just people posting things on Instagram and stuff but one of the phrases that I’ve seen come up a lot is something along the lines of like, you know, “Society doesn’t progress. People don’t get cultural change, social justice doesn’t happen by asking politely.”  In all of human history, it’s always taken a revolution to actually make any change happen. So, this is… Lafayette is like, “But if we do the paperwork and ask politely, maybe we’ll…” It’s like, no, you never would. The king never would. But this is what it took in this instance, but it’s, like, pretty extreme. 

—————

And we’re going to leave it there. It’s a cliffhanger. Yes. Like, you know, when Allison is here, it’s not going to be a one-part episode, generally. Next week, we’re going to be back to learn more about what Lafayette did next. And honestly, the way that this story, like, combines what we talked about in the first part of the series with was happening in America, the American Revolution with the French Revolution, like, it just fills in all these gaps, it fills in all these holes. I like the way that this season is kind of starting to really weave itself together as a tapestry of just, sort of, the people we’ve talked about are starting to recur, and I’m talking about this for me because this is a period of time that I’ve never I’ve truly never studied before. And so, just when the people start to overlap with each other, I’m like, “Oh, that’s that person!” It’s just it’s all kind of building together in the way that I hoped it would and I’m glad it’s actually happening as we wind our way towards the ultimate goal of telling the story of Marie Antoinette. So, next week, we’ll be back with Lafayette, Part Two. 

Also, I have to mention that Allison has a new book that’s coming out February 25th, so just a few months from now, it’s her third book. It is called Fagin the Thief, and it is a retelling of Oliver Twist. Well, it’s like taking the character of Fagin the Thief, who I best know from the musical Oliver, he has a lot of show-stopping songs. He’s a Jewish character living in Victorian London. And what Allison has done beautifully in this book—as all the blurbs on the books and all the pre-release reviews are all saying, I haven’t read it yet, but I know it’s amazing because Allison’s books are always amazing—is to just kind of refocus and kind of show what was life like for Fagin the Thief. 

Anyway, this book comes out in February, you can pre-order it now. Pre-orders are so helpful for authors like Allison because it helps bookstores know that there’s enthusiasm for these books. So, the bookstores know to buy lots of copies and then when bookstores have lots of copies, then other people will come in and see them and buy them. Here’s a quote from one of the blurbs on Allison’s book, “Fagin the Thief does for Fagin what Wicked did for the Wicked Witch of the West. Allison Epstein is absolutely at the top of her game.” That’s a quote from the author Julia Fine. Anyway, you can learn more about Allison and about this book and also links to pre-order Allison’s book, Fagin the Thief at AllisonEpstein.com. 

Allison also has, of course, a Substack newsletter, “Dirtbags Through the Ages.” Lafayette is there, but that’s kind of like a dirtbag (complimentary). There’s also just some really shitty people there. Allison talks about it, it’s so funny. The puns, the amazing puns that she comes up with are just chef’s kiss. It’s a real passion project for her. Anyway, so “Dirtbags Through the Ages” is Allison’s Substack. And you can also find them on social media @Rapscallison. 

You can also find me and the show on social media! We are on Instagram and Threads @VulgarHistoryPod. I also have a Substack newsletter. It’s called “Vulgar History A La Carte” and what I’ve been doing recently is sharing stories of some, a lot of them are women who we’ve talked about on the podcast and some of them aren’t. And I recently just posted about Mary Shelley because our goth queen mom friend icon, like, it’s Halloween season and that is when everybody likes to think about Mary Shelley. I personally think you should think about her year-round, and also Claire Clairmont, you should think about even more often. But anyway, I just posted there about that. So, if you want to subscribe to my Substack, it’s totally free, it’s VulgarHistory.Substack.com. 

Also, I want to mention I have my Patreon. That is where I’ve been posting more and more content. And I do want to emphasize that you can join the Patreon for free and just see a lot of the messages and stuff I post there. I have updates about when there’s, like, merch sales and new merch designs, not just merch-related stuff. Specifically, what I’ve just started posting there is, as you know, or maybe you don’t, maybe this is the first time I’ve ever listened to this podcast, and you don’t know who I am. I’m writing a book about Caroline of Brunswick. I’ve been writing it all year and it’s kind of, at this point, the only thing I’m able to talk about or think about and I want to yell about it to people who know what I’m talking about, which is all of you because people who listen to this podcast tend to start from the beginning, which is the Caroline of Brunswick episode. 

Anyway, so I’ve been writing this book. I’m learning so many new and interesting things about Caroline of Brunswick, like, I ride even harder for her now with all the things I’ve learned about her. And so, I’ve started posting little updates about that on my Patreon in a new podcast. It’s not like, “Ann, why are you doing more work for yourself?” I’m not. I would be yelling about this to Hepburn if I wasn’t recording it for you. So anyway, everyone who joins the Patreon can listen to this new podcast, including free members of the Patreon, it’s called Ann is Writing a Book and it’s just, like, little short updates from me, little audio podcast updates about me. The first one that I posted was about how I’m losing my mind at how many dukes there are in the story. I think it’s something like 17,000. It might be something more like 12 but they all have the same name, and then when one of them dies, then someone else becomes that next Duke. Anyway, I had to make myself a whole document of who are these goddamn Dukes? They’re all Prinny’s brothers and uncles and cousins, and I am losing my mind. And so, I had to yell about it to somebody and so I started a podcast. 

Anyway, so if you go to Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter, and the link is in the show notes of this, wherever you’re listening to this, you can join there to become a Patreon member. And this special podcast of me talking about my book-writing journée is available to all Patreon members, and you don’t have to listen to it on Patreon, you can link it to your Spotify or Apple Podcasts or whatever so it just like pops up like a little treat for you. Yeah. So, that’s happening there. 

And then also if you join the Patreon for $1 a month, then you get early, ad-free access to all regular episodes of Vulgar History, including ad-free episodes of all the old episodes of Vulgar History. And if you pledge $5 or more on the Patreon, then you get also the bonus episodes, which are the bonus other series I do, like The Aftershow where sometimes I extend the conversations I’m having with guests into an aftershow situation. There’s also So This Asshole where I talk about gross men from history. I have had some requests for some shitty men and I’m like, these do sound like shitty men I should scream about that’ll drive me insane. When I finish writing my book, perhaps I will do that. There’s also Vulgarpiece Theatre, which is where myself, today’s guest Allison Epstein, and our other friend, Lana Wood Johnson, talk about historical drama movies. And so, when you, the $5 a month, Patreon membership gets you access to those podcasts as well. And then also the $5 or more Patreons get to join the Discord, which is where we chat, which is another place where I have been sharing information about my book-writing journée, but also we post pictures of our pets and talk about how they’re all such good little guys. Anyway, it’s a nice time if you just want to, like, hang out to chat with other Tits Out Brigade members. We also are really into Survivor, the TV show. 

Anyway, there’s other things to tell you. What are those things? I told you about Allison, Allison’s book. Oh, and then also, so we have our brand partner, Common Era Jewelry, which is a small, women-owned company that makes beautiful heirloom jewelry inspired by women from history. And I usually talk about how, like, they have various collections, they have literal representations of the faces of like some of the women who we’ve talked about on the show, who we love and admire like Cleopatra, Hatshepsut, Anne Boleyn, Agrippina. And then just in terms of, like, parenthood, motherhood, and women in history and how it could be so deadly and so fraught to be giving birth. So, there’s a new design that Torie’s just just added to the store, it’s the ancient fertility and childbirth amulet. So, it’s her interpretation of the ancient uterine amulet, a powerful symbol of protection and fertility rooted in the traditions of the Greco-Roman world. So, as she writes: 

In ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome, childbirth was fraught with danger. Every pregnancy was a step into the unknown, a risk that people carried with them, making the desire for control over their reproductive health even more urgent. These amulets offered women a sense of agency and empowerment in the face of such grave risks, helping them reclaim some control over their own fates.

So, it’s this beautiful new design. Anyway, so that speaks to you in your personal journée, go to CommonEra.com/Vulgar or use code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout to get 15% off of this or any of the other beautiful pieces available from that beautiful jewelry company. 

And if you want to get some beautiful Vulgar History merchandise like our very popular, I have to say, I knew it would be popular. I bought one for myself, it’s our varsity crew neck sweatshirts that say “Vulgar History: Not taking here history seriously since 2019.” It looks like a varsity, like a university-type sweatshirt. It’s gorgeous, designed by a friend of the podcast, Karyn Moynihan, and it’s also shading a person who left a very silly review for my show saying that this show is not for people who take history seriously. And it’s not so, ta-da! Jazz hands. Anyway, you can get that and our other beautiful Vulgar History merchandise including, actually, designed by Karyn as well, we have the “Tits Out for the Holidays,” holiday jumper. If you’re somebody who’s getting on that sort of thing already. The merchandise is available at VulgarHistory.com/Store for people in the US. If you’re outside the US, the shipping is so much better if you go to VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. And a couple times this month, there are sales going on, potentially when you’re listening to this, so just, like, go to the website and if there’s not, like, something percent-off sale just like wait a week and they’re probably will be.

Anyway, you can get in touch with me using the form at VulgarHistory.com, which sends little emails to me if you have thoughts or feedback or whatever about this season. Are there people who you want to make sure that I know about who are involved in this whole Marie Antoinette situation? Like, send me those suggestions as well. Do you live somewhere, or have you travelled somewhere where you’ve seen a plaque or a statue or a reference to any of these people? Very exciting. I love to get pictures from people. I don’t travel a lot. And so, I like people who do travel to send me pictures of their travels. Anyway, next we’ll be back with Lafayette, Part Two and until then keep your pants on and your tits out. 

Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com.

References:

Allison’s new book Fagin the Thief comes out in February 2025. Click here to preorder a copy.

Get 15% off all the gorgeous jewellery and accessories at common.era.com/vulgar or go to commonera.com and use code VULGAR at checkout

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