Vulgar History Podcast
Marquis de Lafayette, Part Two (with Allison Epstein)
October 23, 2024
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and this is part two of a two-part episode. Last week, we had special guest, friend of the podcast, frequent collaborator, Allison Epstein was on and we were talking about the Marquis de Lafayette. Last week ended in a cliffhanger and this week, we’re going to see how this guy’s story turns out. And you might notice this is a women’s history podcast, we’re talking about a man and that’s because gender has no binary. We mostly talk about women on the show, but when a man is imbued with this much tits-out energy, I can’t not do it. And so, we’re continuing the saga of the Marquis de Lafayette and enjoy hearing the second part of this saga.
—————
Allison: Right. And this is where I was like, “Why would you not be fighting out in the streets, Lafayette? This is your bread and butter. You love this.” But you know, he is…
Ann: He’s bros with the king.
Allison: He’s bros with the king. He’s doing more than honestly could probably be expected for most of the nobility by trying to find a middle path. So, like, I’m not— I still feel comfortable loving him in this situation, but it is like “Mm, okay.”
So, 1789 continues, things are still getting worse and worse. There is, again, with the modern-day parallels, there’s a women’s march on the palace in Paris to protest the price of bread because this is “Let them eat cake” time. [laughs]
Ann: The farming and the grain and you know what, I honestly, the price of groceries, like, this is all very 2024.
Allison: Yeah, yeah. So, Lafayette goes over to the palace when this is happening, like, in his capacity as head of the National Guard, chief of police, and he sees this giant mob of people coming at the king and he decides what he’s going to do is, sort of, try to stage this, almost like a play to get the calm people down. So, he brings the king and Marie Antoinette onto the balcony of the palace just to show that like, “Hey! Me, the Marquis de Lafayette, cool revolutionary guy, member of the National Assembly, I like these people. I think they’re pretty cool. They’re bros with me.” And he famously kisses Marie Antoinette’s hand on the balcony in front of the angry crowd to, like, try and bring the tensions down.
Ann: That’s not going to do that.
Allison: No, it doesn’t. But he, like, made a big deal of it and all of the history books mention it and he really tried. She hated him so she didn’t enjoy this. I don’t think he liked her very much. But he was trying to be like, “Can we all just be friends and get along?” at this point.
Ann: Are you going to explain at some point why they hated each other? Or can you now?
Allison: I think they hated each other because he had overthrown a king and was this big, like, liberal guy who was fighting with the people to pass the Declaration of the Rights of Man and she was sort of not into that. I also feel like they’re just two really loud personalities. Like, you can’t have two people as charismatic as Marie Antoinette and Lafayette in the same room and have them get along, I don’t think. So, I think some of it is just interpersonal but some of it is, yeah, he is actively trying to take away power from the French crown to, like, find his centrist path and she’s not loving that.
Ann: Okay, okay.
Allison: So, that brings us to 1790, when Lafayette is still trying to, like, smooth things over with everybody. Bless him, he tries this for a really long time. There’s the scene on the Champs de Mars which is like a centre square in Paris where he takes an oath in front of the mob to be forever loyal to “The King and the National Assembly.” And I’m like, “Bruh! You can’t— That doesn’t mean anything. You can’t do that.” That’s like, “I swear to be loyal to the Revolution and the monarchy at the same time,” bro.
Ann: No, and again, it just feels like a real 2024 thing to be like, you know, “There’s issues on both sides,” sort of vibe.
Allison: Exactly. Yeah. And just like in 2024, the people hear this and they’re like, “Ah! A royalist, we found one. He loves the king and hates the Revolution. Fantastic.” [laughs]
Ann: I mean, I know he’s good at sword fighting, et cetera, but like, they’re not going after him.
Allison: Not yet. Not yet. No. Now they’re just like, “We’re suspicious of this man. Don’t trust the cops,” basically.
Ann: Yeah. [laughs] French version, A-C-A-B. Yeah.
Allison: Yeah, yeah, yeah. AMAB: All Marquis Are Bastards. [both laugh]
I know you’ll get into this in your Marie Antoinette episodes, but 1791 is sort of where things start to fall the fuck apart for the monarchy and everybody else. And in, like, the summer of this, there’s a sequence of events that’s called the Flight to Varennes, which is basically when Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette, who are now, like, hiding in the Tuileries Palace in Paris, trying to stay out of the way of the Revolution, decide that they’re going to try to escape and they’re going to get out of the country. I think they’re going to Austria or wherever Marie Antoinette’s, Habsburg family are at that point. And so, they, like, sneak out in a carriage under cover of darkness and they’re, like, headed for the border basically. And this all happens right under Lafayette’s nose. As the chief of police, basically, he’s supposed to be sort of watching them and making sure nobody gets away. So, this is like really bad news for him because people already think he’s a royalist and now it looks like he’s letting the King and Queen escape.
He sets off with, like, a bunch of National Guardsmen soldiers, catches them, and brings them back. So, he’s doing his job, but it’s sort of too late. At that point, the escape attempt already has people think that he’s an enemy of the people and, like, the big names of the French Revolution, the Dantons, the Robespierres are like, “You’re a traitor and enemy of the people and we hate you and you hate the Revolution.” And it’s like, “Okay, please calm down. He brought them back.” But that goes on.
And then literally, like, two, three weeks after that, there is another protest in the middle of Paris where one of the revolutionary groups is trying to, like, collect signatures on a petition to abolish the monarchy.
Ann: That’s how you get things done.
Allison: Yeah, that’s how you do it, a Change.org petition. But there’s also a big group, there’s a crowd of, like, 50,000 people there trying to get signatures and also protesting and yelling and I’m sure singing revolutionary songs and whatever. And Lafayette, who’s in charge of, like, keeping things together under public order, is like, “Shit. This is a mob of 50,000 people. I don’t know what to do.” So, he tries to calm the crowd and it doesn’t work and things get out of hand and then Lafayette orders the National Guard to fire on the crowd of civilians and about 50 people die and it’s bad. It’s baaaad. He’s in a very bad position and I get that, but yeah, also, yikes.
But that’s the beginning of the end for the Revolution being like, “Let’s let this guy stay around.” So, to his credit, he knows that he’s like, “Oh, I should get out of Paris. That went really, really badly and I shouldn’t be here right now.” So, he goes home and, like, tries to keep his head down but the French Revolution is getting progressively more violent. This is getting into, like, the period of the Terror, ‘92, ’93 where like…
Ann: When is the guillotine invented?
Allison: I don’t know when it was invented, but I think it’s around this period and it’s going to really start getting used in, like, ‘93. So, 1792 in August is when the mob of civilians storm the palace and arrests the king and queen and abolishes the monarchy. At the same time, an arrest warrant is issued for Lafayette as enemy of the people. He’s so intertwined with the king and queen at this point that they’re like, “Oh, we’ll get the king and his asshole Marquis as well. Fuck that guy.” And he says goodbye to his wife and kids and dips out of town. He’s like, “I got to fucking go. They’re going to kill me. They’re burning effigies of him in the streets of Paris so it’s a great time to get out of town.”
Ann: To his credit, he read the room.
Allison: Yeah, the room was very loud to be fair. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah, no, you would think. But a few weeks ago when we did the Madame du Barry episode, she was just like, “Everything’s fine. Don’t worry about this. Like, I’m just going to go to England and then come back, and go to England and then come back.” It’s like, “Oh, what’s this? Revolutionaries rolling the decapitated head of my lover towards me in my home?” She’s like, “Oh, that’s fine… My jewels went missing! I’m going to post pamphlets describing them and giving my address.”
Allison: Lord. Yeah, no, he read the room. [laughs]
Ann: To his credit, he took this seriously in a way that she did not.
Allison: Yes, good for him. So, he fucking ran for it, late 1792 and headed for Austria.
Ann: Oh, I was going to say America!
Allison: No, that would have been smart, honestly. He probably should have done that because everybody in Europe knows who he is. He’s the most famous dirtbag Marquis revolutionary hero ever. So, he is immediately, like, the second he gets across the border into Austria, he is captured and sent to prison as, ironically, a member of the French Revolution. He’s arrested for his involvement in overthrowing the French monarchy, which like… [laughs]
Ann: Well, this is like an era, you know what? Not different from today in the sense of, like, misinformation and whatever. But that was, like, everything was being communicated via letters, you know, that take a while to get to the other place. So, everyone would just be confused of what was going on and who was on what side, probably.
Allison: And you know, like the thing is, though, if you’re the emperor of Austria and you hear about this guy, Marquis de Lafayette, who is swearing his allegiance to the National Assembly and the king, the one you’re going to be worried about is, “Oh, he’s selling his allegiance to the National Assembly, that must be a revolutionary.” Like, he’s trying to walk this middle road in a way that gets both sides pissed off at him. So, like, he can’t win really whatever he’s doing here.
Ann: He was the Chappell Roan of his time.
Allison: [laughs] He was hot to go. And by go, I mean, get the fuck out of Paris, it’s on fire. [laughs]
Ann: [laughs] Now, I don’t know exactly. But I believe that the— Austria is where Marie Antoinette is from, so I think they’re especially cautious about anyone who is maybe on the revolutionary side due to Marie Antoinette having been arrested by the mob.
Allison: That would make sense.
Ann: So, the Austrian Emperor, who is, I think, her brother…
Allison: I think so, who I think does not send very much help to her. So, I’m not sure how useful they are, but…
Ann: I don’t know, but I think he’s also the guy from the movie Amadeus.
Allison: Yes.
Ann: Anyway, so Lafayette, arrested in Austria, okay.
Allison: Yes. And so, he’s arrested as, like, a prisoner of the state. And this is 1792 and he stays in prison from 1792 until 1797. He’s in prison for five years.
Ann: But not executed, so good.
Allison: No, not executed.
Ann: Because, like, you could put him in prison, but you can’t be mad at that guy.
Allison: You can’t be mad at that guy, he’s so charming.
Allison: Yeah. So, he gets moved, like, from prison to prison throughout these years. He’s transferred all over the place and throughout all of this time, he’s writing letters to, like, his buds from the American Revolution, being like, “Hey, excuse me. You remember when I gave up all of my money and all of those ships and six years of my life to fight in your revolution? Could you please like help me get out of prison? Thomas Jefferson? George Washington? Alexander Hamilton? Any of y’all fuckers?” And they didn’t do shit. They didn’t do shit. There was, like, a diplomatic crisis between France and America at the time, because France was diplomatically problematic for everybody. They’re in a revolution, no one wants to, like, do trade deals with them. So, it was a bad time.
The one person who did try to help Lafayette break out of prison during this time, Angelica Schuyler from the Broadway musical Hamilton. [laughs]
Ann: Work! She’s Renée Elise Goldsberry. Right?
Allison: Exactly. Yeah.
Ann: What?
Allison: Yeah, I love it. [laughs] She married an English guy, as noted in Act II of Hamilton and moves to London. And she, like, knew Lafayette because everybody knew Lafayette. She was, you know, up in the Founding Father boardroom with everybody else and she, like, paid a doctor to come and look at him and then, like, sneak him into a carriage and go off in the middle of the night. They got caught and he got sent back. So, it didn’t work. But like, go off, Angelica. I love that.
Ann: Good for her. You know what? She tried. That was a good plan.
Allison: She did! It’s more than fucking George Washington did. And Lafayette didn’t name his kid after Angelica Schuyler! This is where I get real fucking indignant about George Washington as a Lafayette girlie. I’m just like, “He loved you so much and you did nothing! Nothing.”
Ann: This is where… I don’t remember the years exactly, but I feel like George Washington was busy being, like, a bitch and just being like, “Eugh, I don’t want to be President. I don’t like living in New York! Mehhh. I just want to be in my, like, slave plantation, mehhh.” Like, he was just busy whining and not and being President, and not wanting to be President, and as Martha Washington is just revolutionary Karen is just like, “I hate it here too!” He was not in a mental space to help other people. George Washington was busy having a pity party for two.
Allison: Yes. Yes, he was. So, throughout all of this, this is sort of the French Revolution happens off screen.
Ann: While he’s in jail.
Allison: While he’s in jail. Yeah, he misses the rest. [laughs]
Ann: No, but this is good because, you know, I’m going to get into other episodes that will talk about, “Meanwhile… the Revolution.” Like, you really set us up beautifully for, like, how it happened and why and that’s probably, you know, in future episodes, I’ll talk about like this next part of the Revolution.
Allison: I know you will get into all of that, so my notes do say, “Meanwhile, the rest of the Revolution happens.” We don’t need to get into it.
Ann: Exactly. But like to Lafayette, it’s just like, meanwhile, he’s in prison. I don’t know. Whatever.
Allison: It sucks. And because he’s in prison for five years and nothing happens, I asked you if we could take a sidebar into my favourite part of the French Revolution and you said yes. So, I’m going to hold you to it and talk briefly about the French Republican calendar, my favourite thing.
Ann: No! I don’t think you asked me if you could do that. I think I asked you if you would do that. I think we simultaneously were like, “But we’re going to talk about Brumaire, right?”
Allison: It’s so fucking weird and I love it so much.
Ann: It’s my favourite thing, too! Okay.
Allison: Okay. So, like, 1793 into 1794, the French were like, “You know what? Our old calendar is too royalist. The names of the months have, like, Roman emperors in them and all of monarchist history uses those dates. You know what we’re going to do? We’re going to make an entirely new calendar starting right now. We’re going to change the length of the months or to change the length of a week. We’re going to change the name of every day and every month. Just to fucking make it impossible for historians in the future to know what’s going on.”
Ann: No, but did they start with 0? Were they like, “We’re in the year 0 now.”?
Allison: Yes, they started the calendar over. Yeah! [laughs]
Ann: Amazing. Iconic behaviour.
Allison: Because this is a new age of liberty or some shit like that.
Ann: It’s my favourite thing! When I was doing my history undergraduate degree, I don’t remember what class this was in or in what context, but I just remember… Maybe I was just learning about the French Revolution, but they’re just like, “Okay, so like this happened and it’s like the 15th Brumaire (May 3rd).” Like, everything had to be like, “This happened on this day, (Here’s the actual day).”
Allison: Yeah, like, this fake-ass calendar that didn’t last. It lasted, like, 10 years. But, like, it’s 10 years in which so much history happened that it shows up all over the place.
Ann: It would just be so complicated in the time also if you’re trying to do, like, trade with another country. It’s like, “Okay, when is the shipment of grain coming?” “Well, could you send it on the 77th of Brumaire?” Like, I’m sorry, what?
Allison: What the fuck is that, France?
Ann: Like, “I’m going to come and visit you. Could you, like, book me a hotel room for like…?”
Allison: Oh my god. Yeah. And I love the goofy-ass names that they gave to everything because…
Ann: Everything is perfect.
Allison: Everything is goofy. Every month is named after, like, the sort of weather that they have in France during that month. So, like, Brumaire means, like, the sort of foggy month. And then there’s like Germinal, which is the month when the cherry trees start to blossom. The fuck, France?! [laughs] They renamed to the days of the week so that it’s, like, primidi, duodi, tridi. That’s one-day, two-day, three-day. That’s how they renamed the days of the week!
Ann: So, how many days of the week? Because it’s not seven days, 30 days a month.
Allison: It’s 10.
Ann: 10 days in a week?
Allison: 10 days in a week. Yes, for reasons.
Ann: I would accept that if…
Allison: And there are 30 days in each month.
Ann: Okay, okay.
Allison: It’s actually a very reasonable system if anybody else was using it, except they need to have, every four years, an extra day and then every couple of months an extra day too because the math doesn’t work out.
Ann: Yeah, yeah. Not to give any credit to Napoleon at all, but this reminds me of, I was at work, I think, we were like, what? I think we were talking about, like, how Americans use different measuring things from, like, any other country in the world because other countries are metric, American not. And then we’re like, “How did that come to be?” And then just looking back at it on, like, Wikipedia.com/WeightsAndMeasurees or whatever. Anyway, so like all different countries used all different kinds of weights and measures and then there was Napoleon, who is like, let’s standardize…
Allison: The metric system! Napoleon.
Ann: So, when I want to have, like, 500 pounds of grain, you in, like, Tunisia, know what I mean by that. And I was like, that makes so much sense for like… Because there is in this era, there’s so much international commerce and trade and stuff and whatnot.
Allison: Yeah! For, like, the first time.
Ann: I know. And so, it’s like for France at this time to be like, “Let’s change the calendar.” It’s amazing.
Allison: The days! [laughs] One other fun fact about this calendar that I love is that every day of every month is assigned its own little plant so that you could get calendars where every day had a drawing of a little herb in it and that was the day, like, I’m looking at the French Revolutionary calendar right now and I don’t know what the fuck day today is, but like, we’re recording this on October 6th and so like the sixth day of the tenth month of this fucked up calendar was the Day of Rosemary. It’s just so cute.
Ann: It’s so cute. And, like, artists out there listening, like, if you make a French Revolutionary calendar, I will order one for myself.
Allison: Sometimes they have animals. One of the days is the Day of the Otter.
Ann: This is also, like, a real group project vibe of, like, make a calendar and you choose 12 kids in your, like, grade five class. And they’re like, “It should be like this.” And then one kid is like, “No, but there should be a plant for every day.” It’s like, “No, but there should be some of those animals.” And every idea is accepted.
Allison: Well, yeah, because we’re all equal under the Revolution. No bad ideas.
Ann: Yeah! I love this. I love— There was something in one of the books I was reading for my Caroline of Brunswick book that did mention… Sorry, the only month I know is Brumaire. I just always say Brumaire, but it mentioned something, one of those dates, I was like, “[gasps] Brumaire! [both laugh] My favourite month of the year!”
Allison: They’re all so silly! The months are, like, Pluviôse, which is the rainy month or Prairial, the month where you can go out into the fields. It’s just so goofy.
Ann: And also, like, just in terms of like, this is the French Revolution. It’s happening, like, primarily in Paris, I presume. How do you communicate this to somebody way up in some other rural area? Like, by the time it’s like, “Hey, guess what? We’re calling this month this now.” They’ll be like…
Allison: “The fuck we are!” [laughs]
Ann: “What the fuck are you talking about? It’s August.” “No, no, no, it’s not.” Oh, my god.
Allison: [laughs] Oh, they’re fun.
Ann: This is great. And listeners, Allison has a link here in this document of the names of the days of the week. I will put that link in the show notes so people can just really get into this because it’s a personal highlight to me of this whole era.
Allison: Yeah, for anybody who’s born on what I think is June 25th, which is the Day of Tuna, I am so sorry.
Ann: [laughs] Oh, it’s fantastic. This is great. Okay.
Allison: Okay, back to timeline.
Ann: So, Lafayette was in jail from the primidi… [Allison laughs] For five years, however you communicate that in this calendar.
Allison: Yes. But one nice thing happened while he was in jail, two years after he had been arrested and it’s that his wife is the best wife of all time. Remember when I said they were the cutest?
Ann: They are the cutest. No. And I’m excited to hear that. But I was just imagining also, he writes a letter to somebody and then she writes back being like, “Hey, it’s not called August anymore. [Allison laughs] Here’s a matrix.” And he’s like, “Adrienne, you sent me a letter and it said at the top, Brumaire.”
Allison: “What the fuck is this? I leave y’all alone for 12 months.” [laughs]
Ann: And she’s like, “No, but…”
Allison: “It’s actually been nine months. Don’t worry about it. We change the length of the months.”
Ann: “Yeah. And today is actually the Day of the Tuna.” And he’s just like, “What is happening?”
Allison: “Am I having a breakdown?”
Ann: Yeah, because, you know, like, at the top of a formal letter, you write the date.
Allison: Oh, that’s so funny. I hadn’t thought about that. Yeah. I wonder what it was like to tell him that.
But they talked in letters all this time, Marie-Adrienne and Lafayette. And then in 1795, Marie-Adrienne said, “You know what? Fuck this. No one’s going to help my husband. I’m going to go help my husband.” And she and her two daughters, Marie-Antoinette and Anastasie, rode to Austria from France, mid-Revolution, and talked to the emperor of Austria and said, “You should let Lafayette go. He didn’t do anything wrong. He’s fine.” And the emperor said, “No. He is a revolutionary and a danger, and we are not going to let him go.” And so, Marie-Adrienne said, “Okay, can we stay in prison with him then? I miss him. He’s my husband.” And the emperor said, yes.
So, one day in 1795, they opened the door to Lafayette’s prison cell and his wife and daughters come in and they’re like, “We’re going to stay with you for the rest of this, bestie, because we love you so much.” And it’s just… They stayed there for two years after that together! Just, like, living their little family life in prison. And it’s just like… Also, he was rich so this is sort of, like, Tower of Londony prison where it’s not like, he’s not living underground in a cell. It’s not horrible. It’s just like…
Ann: Yeah, no, I was going to say, this very much reminds me of at the Tower of London, there’s these apartments and it was Walter Raleigh and his wife, Bess Throckmorton. And it’s like he was in prison that they just made these apartments and it was just, like, a nice room with a fireplace. It was, like, literally apartments. It wasn’t like a small cell.
Allison: It was fine. I don’t think they were, like, super nice because they were mad at him. But like they were okay, you could bring a kid in.
Ann: Yeah, it was like a tiny house. Like, you can live there; there’s rooms, there’s beds. But that’s badass.
Allison: It’s so badass.
Ann: I love that. I love that. We’ve had a couple, you know, I think of, like, Lady Catherine Gray, who was like in prison next to her husband, and they like snuck to see each other and stuff. But this is like, “I’m going to stay with my jail husband.”
Allison: Yes. And he’s like, “I would really rather you didn’t go in prison.” And she’s like, “Fuck off. I’m coming in prison. I love you. Don’t worry about it.”
Ann: She’s great. She’s great. You mentioned the two daughters. But what happened to George Washington Lafayette?
Allison: He, I believe, let me check my notes, I wrote it down.
Ann: He didn’t child die.
Allison: No, he’s still alive. He’s fine. I think…
Ann: He’s, like, up at army school or something, probably.
Allison: He was in America at this point. He was doing a little America tour.
Ann: Aww, George Washington Lafayette.
Allison: Yeah, I think he was in America when the Revolution broke out and he’s like, “Perhaps I should not come back right now,” which, good call.
Ann: This family has sense and that’s so rare.
Allison: It really, really is. We love it.
Ann: I could just have, like, still just memories of the Madame du Barry of it all. But these are people making good decisions.
Allison: They’re reading the room and going, “Oh, this room is bad for me. Perhaps I should stay in that room.” Yeah. Yes.
Ann: So, like, family jail time. Two years.
Allison: Yes. And then by, like, 1797, the most of the French Revolution has sort of blown over, the new directorate, which is like the provisional government, is in place. People are no longer guillotining each other every day.
Ann: Who’s in charge?
Allison: That’s a great question. Right now, basically nobody. Like, some nobody politicians who no one remembers their names, it’s sort of, like, a parliament situation. There’s not a king, but we’re not, we don’t have an emperor yet. This is the in-between.
Ann: It’s just kind of like, okay, just a group project. Just like, a bunch of people.
Allison: Yes. This is like, “Okay, we killed all of the revolutionaries during the Terror. So, let’s like take a look around. Who’s left?”
Ann: “We killed all the aristocrats. We killed all the royals. We killed past revolutionary leaders,” yeah, exactly, “Who’s left?”
Allison: “Oh, no. What do we do?”
Ann: Who’s left is, like, soldiers mostly, right?
Allison: Mostly, yeah. So, Lafayette gets released under the advice of one of the French generals, who’s kind of sort of running things at this point, becoming more and more powerful. Gives me no pleasure to report that this general is none other than Napoleon Bonaparte, who helps get Lafayette out of prison.
Ann: Noooo! Arghhhhh!
Allison: I know. I was like, “No! Not Napoleon doing a thing that’s helpful for my boy.” I hate it.
Ann: This is… Well, Napoleon did one good thing in his life, and this was it.
Allison: One good thing. And so, Lafayette gets freed. He’s 40 years old at this point. I’m sure he feels like he’s 95 years old, but he is 40.
Ann: Wow. He’s lived the life of… It’s like sometimes in other episodes of this podcast. All this stuff happens. I’m like, “And then she died. She was 21.” And it’s like, “What?! I thought she was like 76.” Yeah. Okay, so he’s 40.
Allison: He’s 40. So, he goes home. No, actually, he doesn’t go home. I lied because still France is sort of, like, a mess and he’s not super welcome in France, even though he’s not arrested in Austria. So, I think he moves into, like, the French consulate in Hamburg for a couple of years because he’s sort of like a man without a country, a man without a home but he’s hanging out, his son comes home. They’re all together, they’re doing the best they can.
Ann: Yeah! I think this is where, like, his charm and his pleasant demeanour, people would be happy to have him as a houseguest and stuff.
Allison: Exactly. He’s charming. He’s not causing any problems. He just wants to be left alone at this point. He’s fresh out of prison, just “Give me a minute to catch my breath.” And he gets two years to catch his breath until November 1799, which may be better known as 1799, the month of Brumaire! [laughs] He’s back!
Ann: So, they’re still doing this calendar.
Allison: Oh yes. Yes, yes. So, this is when Napoleon says “This shitty little directorate government is actually not giving me, personally, enough power. Let me seize power through the Coup de Brumaire,” so named because it is a coup in the fake month of Brumaire.
Ann: Thank you. I’m so glad. That’s why that’s the one month I know.
Allison: Yes. [laughs] So, Napoleon is not quite emperor yet, but he’s sort of, like, acting emperor. He’s taking charge of things. He’s like, “Oh, no one is going to be in power? I’ll be in power.”
Ann: There is sort of, like, a power vacuum. Like, yeah, he’s able to do this.
Allison: Yeah. Which is why “Who’s in charge?” is a really good question. No one until Napoleon says, “I can do that.” So, he steps into the vacuum. Everything’s super crazy at this point. You know, it’s politically unstable, everyone’s freaking out. We just had a revolution, what’s going on?
And Lafayette uses this moment to be his sneaky little asshole self and so he puts on the disguise and gets a fake passport and sneaks back into France, and he’s like, “Great, I could go home now. No one’s paying attention to me.” His fake passport uses the name Motier which is one of his 11 names so it wasn’t actually a very good disguise but he tried. He went back to, like. Chavaniac-Lafayette, where his family home was and just sort of, like, moved in and is like, “Great. I’m going to try and mind my business.” Napoleon reaches out to him and says, “Hey, you’re the guy who’s in all of the history. Would you like to be involved in the new government that I’m making? Do you think that would be helpful?”
Ann: “Can we have a meeting? We’ll meet on the 13th Brumaire.” [Allison laughs] And Lafayette’s like, “I still don’t get that.”
Allison: “I still don’t know what that is. I missed that part. I was absent that day.” [laughs] Yeah, Lafayette refuses all offers to serve in politics, rightfully. Another man who reads the room and was like, “Do you remember six years ago when they were burning me in effigy in the streets? I don’t think I should be in politics right now. Please leave me alone.”
Ann: Yeah. “I would like to be removed from the narrative. Thank you.”
Allison: Yes, he sure would. Napoleon then decides to declare himself the first emperor of France and takes power for life. This is 1804. Lafayette, as a citizen of France or still this rich, important guy, was allowed to vote and he voted no. He said, “No, thank you, this is some bullshit.”
Ann: He’s on the right side of history.
Allison: But Napoleon did it anyway.
Ann: The bullshit of this, the hypocrisy of this, just that they’re like, “We’re getting rid of the monarchy and in its place… Monarchy! But with a different guy.”
Allison: An emperor! It’s even worse.
Ann: Emperor for life.
Allison: Colonialism as well as monarchy? It’s just baffling to me.
Ann: Yeah. Just the way… We talked about this, listeners, in the Rachel episode, you explained all of the permutations of government that happened. And then it’s like, “Then it was monarchy again. Then it was Napoleon’s, like, relative. Then it was royalty again! And then it was like this other guy.” Like, it gets crazy. We don’t need to get into that because Lafayette’s not up in that business, I hope. Actually, he probably is!
Allison: [laughs] Probably is.
Ann: What am I saying? He’s always up in that shit.
Allison: He’s up in all the business.
Allison: So, 1804, Napoleon is the emperor. I have in my notes, just “Remember to laugh at Napoleon for losing the Haitian Revolution in 1803,” because they kicked his ass and fuck him.
Ann: We’re going to be, later this season, talking more about Haitian Revolution, which has got a lot of…
Allison: Fuck yeah!
Ann: Yeah, there’s some… It’s important. It connects a lot of the stuff they’re talking about. But also it’s just, like, a real positive energy.
Allison: It’s a really satisfying story of, Napoleon said, “Let’s bring back slavery.” And Haiti said, “Let’s bring back kicking your ass,” and it worked.
Ann: Yeah. No, it was it’s an interesting time and in the context of this sort of, like, revolutionary period, the Haitian Revolution was, I believe, the only successful revolt by enslaved people in… ever.
Allison: I think so.
Ann: By, like, Black enslaved people.
Allison: Yeah, it’s an incredible story.
Ann: Yeah. And a good part of it is the fact that it, like, is against Napoleon.
Allison: Which makes it even better.
Okay, so all of this, Lafayette is trying his damndest just to keep his head down. 1807, sadly, Marie Adrienne passes away due to old-timey illness. Her last words were “Je suis tout à vous” which is, “I am all yours,” because they are the cutest little babies.
Ann: It’s so rare in history, like, not just this podcast, but like, history to have just a nice couple who…
Allison: They love each other so much, Ann!
Ann: … are, like, good to each other. It’s so rare. Oh, Adrienne.
Allison: And you know, it’s real because she, like, you don’t go to prison for a guy you kind of like. Yeah, that was… Augh, they’re just relationship goals, the Lafayettes. And the fact that we don’t have a biopic of their marriage is so infuriating to me. We got another Joséphine Napoleon movie. But where’s my Adrienne Lafayette movie? Where is this? Where is it? Augh!
Okay, I don’t know if you want to talk about the Napoleonic Wars, I don’t really. They happened during this time.
Ann: I just want to know about what Lafayette’s up to. Was he up to…
Allison: He is up to mourning his wife and removing himself from the narrative.
Ann: And Napoleonic Wars are just kind of happening in the background and he’s just like— You know that one scene in, I want to say, the second Twilight movie, where she’s just, like, sad and the seasons just pass and she’s just sad. That’s Lafayette.
Allison: Yeah, that is what’s happening. Yeah.
Ann: Like, Brumaire turns into, like, the next month…
Allison: Vendémiaire turns into Frimaire. Yeah. [laughs]
Ann: And he’s just, like, sitting, you know, just sad.
Allison: The thing he does do is he, kind of like, makes his house the unofficial American embassy for any Americans who are visiting France during this time. So, like, he gets to hang out with his friends and that’s probably good for him during this time of sadness.
Ann: And just remembering the good times when he was 18 and they were all revolutionaries together in America.
Allison: And he’s still got his three kids so they take care of him.
So blah, blah, blah, Napoleon, blah, blah, blah. He’s emperor until 1815 when he gets deposed and sent all the fucking way to Saint Helena and he’s out of the picture, thank god. So, the next kind of interesting thing that happens in Lafayette’s life is in 1824, which is if I’m doing the math right, in my head, roughly the 50th anniversary of the American Revolution starting. So, this is like his big victory lap. This is when he goes back to America and is, like, going to go on a tour of the new country and see how things have gone since he helped found this country. And I love this for him because he is welcomed like a goddamn hero. There are crowds of people, like, flogging the streets to see him, there’s parades. There’s so much incredible merch made with his face on it during this tour; you can get, like, Lafayette tea towels, and Lafayette plates and, like, Lafayette thimbles. They went nuts. And he toured the whole country, all over, with his son, George Washington Lafayette. They were there for, like, two years. He met every single important American person who was alive in 1824. His Wikipedia page at this point is just, like, all links for all the people that he saw. I think he met Andrew Jackson at this point and fuck Andrew Jackson. But whatever.
Ann: This is when, to overlap with the previous Vulgar History episode is where he went, obviously, to Monticello to hang out with Thomas J and that’s where he would have been like, “Oh, Sally Hemmings. Yes, I remember her from, like, when we were hanging out in that house in Paris. Like, this is interesting. I see there are some, like, mixed-race sons of Sally Hemmings who look exactly like Thomas Jefferson. Okay, okay, okay. You remember I’m like for the abolition of slavery, but like, okay, okay.”
Allison: “I see what’s happening here, TJ. I’m no dummy.”
Ann: But he saw Sally and so that was, you know… I think he was so nice. I like to think that he and Sally would have been happy to see each other.
Allison: I think he would have remembered her for sure. Like, “Hey! Sally! Remember those good times before I went to prison? Those were fun days.” Yeah, he is 68 years old at this point, by the way. So, between his forties and his sixties, that was avoid Napoleon years, and now he’s getting to, like, the aftermath of it all.
So, Lafayette returns to France after his big celebratory American tour in 1825. And in 1830, there was another fucking revolution. [laughs]
Ann: This is the part that’s so confusing to me. [chuckles]
Allison: I know.
Ann: And we went through all this in the Rachel episode, but it’s just, like, the turnover rate of, like…
Allison: Astonishing.
Ann: … who is in charge, it’s just, like, it’s a monarch, it’s a Napoleon, it’s a monarch, it’s a Napo— It’s just, France is never not revolutioning.
Allison: They love a revolution. At this point… the 19th century in France is just a revolution every three years.
Ann: It’s just they’re like, “You know, my parents told me about the revolution they did. That sounded like fun. Let’s do one now!”
Allison: “Let’s do that, yeah!”
Ann: Revolution for the new generation. Okay, so there’s a new revolution and what is the result? Wait, who was in charge after Napoleon stopped?
Allison: [chuckles] I don’t know if this was— I think it was Louis XVIII.
Ann: So, after the plane was defeated, then it went back to a monarchy. Wait, Louis XVIII? What happened to…
Allison: Because Louis XVI was executed and out of respect for his son, Louis, who was killed in prison, they made that one, who was never actually king, the XVII, and they skipped to the XVIII.
Ann: Okay, I was thinking, like, we’ve missed one. Okay.
Allison: You know, that was baby casualty.
Ann: Is this Louis, the king, is this Philippe Égalité?
Allison: No.
Ann: No, that’s a different person.
Allison: That’s a different one. [laughs]
Ann: Okay, because he also wanted to be king.
Allison: This one is not as important to the story. He’s the one who is bridging Napoleon and Charles X, who is the one that was actually in power, like, at the very start of the 1830 Revolution, because he came into power and everyone fucking hated it.
Ann: Okay… God, thank you for knowing all this because it’s such a mess. I can’t believe that Lafayette, like, American Revolution, French Revolution, and then he lived long enough to be into these, like, the next French Revolution.
Allison: Yeah! I’m sure he came back and said, “What the fuck is happening in the House of Commons? This is insane.”
Ann: He’s just like, “Can I live one year that is just, like, normal? Can I just have one normal year where there’s not, like, unprecedented times?”
Allison: He wanted a precedented time at some point. Yes.
Ann: Okay, so he came back.
Allison: So, 1830, Charles X is king and no one likes him, including Lafayette. Lafayette’s like, “Take a look at this asshole. He’s an ultra royalist, like kind of a trying to crack down on free expression and, like, no one can assemble. Everyone has to do exactly what I say.” And so, Lafayette, who by this point, I think is in his seventies, is just giving shady toasts at dinner parties, being like, “To France and everybody except for Charles X who fucking sucks and I hate him,” which I love because I love a drama queen. But in 1830, the people of Paris get fed up with how much Charles X sucks and they sort of take to the streets and start building barricades as the people in Paris are want to do.
Ann: But this is not Les Misérables.
Allison: No, this is the one two years before where things actually happened.
Ann: Okay, but there are barricades.
Allison: But there are barricades. Yes.
Ann: Okay, yes.
Allison: So, Charles is like, “Oh, the people want to kill me. I’m going to run the fuck away,” and he gets out of town, and then the Revolution of 1830, which is also called the July Revolution, this lasts for, like, a week or two.
Ann: Wait, they’re… No more Brumaire?
Allison: No, we’re back to July. [laughs]
Ann: Did that go away when Napoleon left?
Allison: I believe so. Yeah, it lasted through the Revolution in the empire. And then the kings came back and they’re like, “We can’t fucking do this. This is silly.”
Ann: Which is true. Okay, so… barricades.
Allison: Yes, yes, yes.
Ann: Okay… [laughs]
Allison: This is where it all goes off. Yeah.
Ann: It’s a runaway train, this whole decade. So, who gets put in charge after this 1830 revolution?
Allison: This is Louis Philippe, which is Philippe Égalité.
Ann: Philippe Égalité, who people will know, he was bros with Chevalier de Saint-Georges in the previous episode.
Allison: Oh, wait, no. I’m so sorry. This is a different Philippe. We are about six years after that. Yeah, this is this is the Citizen King. This is just another king.
Ann: Okay. Yeah, I just like that the one guy he was like…
Allison: He was cool.
Ann: Saint-Georges’s friend, Philippe, was just like, “I’m not like the other aristocrats. I’m cool. I’m not Philippe, like, Prince. I’m Philippe… Égalité.” It was memorable to me that he changed his name.
Allison: No, that’s cool.
Ann: Okay, so this is a new guy who was king.
Allison: Yes. But before we get to this, I want to tell you my favourite part about the July Revolution of 1830…
Ann: Please.
Allison: … which is that 70-year-old Lafayette took to the barricades with his musket and was again named the head of the Parisian National Guard and fought in the streets in the July Revolution because he hated Charles X so fucking much. This man was Joe Biden’s age, and he said, “I’m going for it. Fuck this man.” And I’m obsessed.
Ann: I’m picturing him just, like, you know, people maybe helping him climb up the barricades. He’s just like, “Oh, you know, I just got my hip replacement surgery, I’m on the waitlist. I got it. I got it.”
Allison: Yeah, they’re like, “He’s a little old, but he’s got the spirit. Let him go.”
Ann: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Lafayette.
Allison: Legendary.
Ann: Yes. Love it. Okay.
Allison: So, he’s on the streets. And then the king now is Louis Philippe, who is often called the Citizen King, which is why I got confused with Philippe Égalité because his whole thing was “I’m not like the other kings. I’m a cool king. I like the people,” because he saw what happened to Charles and was like, “Oh, I better not be like that. Let me be a liberal king who’s buds with the people,” blah, blah, blah. Louis Philippe asked Lafayette if he wanted to come work in government. And Lafayette said, “Thank you, but I am retired. Please leave me the fuck alone,” and he went home.
So, because it comes up, the 1832 revolution is the Les Mis revolution. It’s just, like, people are still kind of pissed off about Louis Philippe so there’s a bunch of little skirmishes throughout the 1830s because people are just like, “We had one revolution, let’s have ten more. Why not?”
Ann: Well, it’s kind of like once you’ve done one revolution, it’s easier to do a second one and then to do a third one. Like, you kind of know what— There’s people around who were there before. Like, they know how to build barricades, people know what’s up. But this this time, Lafayette stays out of it.
Allison: Stays the fuck at home. He’s literally 75 years old during that one so he’s decided “Actually, I’m done now,” and nothing happens in that revolution. It’s failed. Louis Philippe stays king probably because Lafayette wasn’t out there being amazing because every revolution he fights in seems to work but, you know…
Ann: Well, he just chooses the good ones to…
Allison: He does.
Ann: I don’t know. The ones he chooses happen to be successful. Is that because he’s there or is that because he just chooses the good ones? I don’t know.
Allison: Hard to say but correlation for sure.
So, Lafayette passed away of pneumonia in May 1834 at age 77, which is way longer than I thought someone like him was going to live based on the way his story went. But he didn’t quit.
Ann: Well, based on the amount of revolutions and battles and then the jail time and the… Yeah.
Allison: The emperor of it all, the enemies of Napoleon. It’s, like, a whole thing and he made it to 77, which is amazing. He was buried next to Marie Adrienne, their graves are next to each other. It’s adorable and also, if you look at a picture of Lafayette’s tomb, they just have all of his first initials and then “de Lafayette” at the end, because there’s no room. So, his tomb says M.J.P.Y.R.G. du Motier and it’s adorable. [laughs]
Ann: That’s what there is space for.
Allison: Yeah. And so that is the many revolutions of the Marquis de Lafayette. He is known as “the Man of Two Revolutions.” I think, technically, he had five, but whatever, close enough.
Ann: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was like, it’s definitely more than two. But two that were especially well known.
Allison: Two ones that are named after countries, yeah.
Ann: Okay, so we’re doing this like… I have the scale we can’t change the categories because then I’d have to retroactively change everyone’s score and, like, we’re just sticking with the categories.
Allison: Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
Ann: So, I think, like, it’s not a surprise. Like Sexism Bonus is 0. Like, I’m just going to fill that in first, because…
Allison: Literally, he had every privilege imaginable, every single one of them. He is the privilege so…
Ann: Truly nothing culturally or societally was holding him back at all.
Allison: Except for all of his money during the French Revolution but I refuse to count that.
Ann: Fair, fair. No, it’s like, “Oh, poor him, he was rich.” Okay, so the first category we’re going to actually score him on is Scandaliciousness. And I think… because Scandaliciousness is a lot of looking at like people of the time and how did they see him and where he was in, like, America and also in France, like, him going to America was so scandalous; he had to sneak away and stuff, and it was, like, treason. So, the people in France would have seen that as scandalous. And then during the French Revolution— I feel he was very scandalous as a person, but he was so charming that no one stayed mad that long.
Allison: That’s the thing. I think he was scandalous, but he wasn’t considered scandalous because he would just come in and say, “Hey, don’t worry about it. I’m so charming. Forget about it,” and just smooth everything over. And he also was, like, scandalous politically, but in his personal life, he’s the least scandalous person. He just loved his wife, that’s all.
Ann: He was a wife guy. Yeah.
Allison: He never had any, like, personal scandals. It was all, like, revolution-based scandals.
Ann: Like, I think to his father-in-law, he was…
Allison: Yes. 10 out of 10.
Ann: Very scandalous. And like, so this might be, like, a medium score because to some people… Like, he was put in jail for like… It’s not nothing, but it’s not a super high score because, like, even when he ran away to America, fought in the war, came back. The king was like, “I can’t be mad.”
Allison: “I can’t be mad at you, you scoundrel.” Yeah.
Ann: Yeah. Well, and that’s where the privilege comes in as well. Yeah. So, I don’t know, like a 5? I don’t know.
Allison: I’d give him a 6, maybe.
Ann: Okay, because it was certainly a much more scandalous life than, like, most or perhaps any other men of his rank were up to. Yeah, he was…
Allison: He was always up to something.
Ann: Speaking of… Schemieness.
Allison: Okay, this is where I want to give him higher scores because this man had a scheme always. If it was a military scheme or a political scheme, there was never— I mean, there was a small time when he was sitting at home, not getting actively involved in things, but up until he was 73 years old, he’s like, “Let me go instate myself in the National Guard to lead a revolution.” Like, he didn’t quit.
Ann: There’s, like, big schemes in the form of war plans and, you know, battlefield stuff that all the schemes of, like, all the battles he won in the American Revolution. But then there’s smaller, more personal schemes, like running away to get the warship, like, going with a guy as far as Marseille and then doo-doo-doo back through the woods, and then like, “I’m going to wait till after they search the ship.” Like, he was never not scheming.
Allison: There’s also the half-escape from prison with Angelica Schuyler’s physician. Like, there were all kinds of things.
Ann: Yeah. Well, and even he was trying to do a scheme by writing to all his friends in America they just didn’t meet him halfway.
Allison: He’s even trying to do a scheme by naming his baby Marie Antoinette. Like, he was up on it.
Ann: And the schemes were not all good, like, going with kissing Marie Antoinette’s hand in front of the crowd. Not a good scheme, but a scheme nonetheless.
Allison: A scheme nonetheless. Yes.
Ann: Yeah. So, I think this is a high score, but I will let you, as his ultimate fan, decide the number.
Allison: I would give him an 8, I think. This should be his highest score, for sure.
Ann: Yeah. And then the final category for him is Significance.
Allison: Actually, I take it back. This might be where he’s strong [laughs] because he sort of, like, guided two countries into revolutions that fundamentally reshaped how they are today. So… Yeah, I mean, he was there for everything. We don’t call him the Forrest Gump of the 19th century for no reason. So…
Ann: And he wasn’t just there. He was, like, instrumental in the American Revolution happening and because the American Revolution happened, like, that fundamentally changed world history.
Allison: Yeah. Like, without the guns and ships, would they have won? Without him at the Battle of Yorktown, would America have won the Revolution? I don’t know. Maybe not. It was touch and go for a lot of that.
Ann: Yeah. He’s very significant there. And then I don’t… He was right there for so much of the French Revolution stuff. It’s, like, Napoleon is a more significant figure in terms of, like, global history, but Lafayette was there for all that stuff, and he was…
Allison: He was trying to slow it down and he didn’t succeed. But if he hadn’t been there to slow it down, I think he’s less significant in the French Revolution, honestly, just because it probably would have ended up the way that it did, had he not been there and just maybe even faster. But you can’t deny that he shaped the way it went.
Ann: Yeah. I think this is a high score. I think this would be a 9?
Allison: I think a 9 is fair because Napoleon would get the 10 and I don’t want them to share that score.
Ann: No. And we’re never… Listeners, we have done a So This Asshole, Napoleon episode. I’m never going to do an actual Vulgar History episode about Napoleon.
Allison: No, he doesn’t deserve that.
Ann: No. Allison…
Allison: Did I get the same score that I always get for all of my people Ann?
Ann: So, the score that you got is 23. Just to remind you of the other people we’ve talked about… [both laugh] Empress Elisabeth of Russia has a 23.
Allison: Perfect.
Ann: Lola Montez has a 23. Catalina de Erauso, 23.5. [Allison laughs] Rachel, 26.
Allison: So, yeah, that all tracks. I have a type, Ann, and it’s 23.
Ann: 23 And Me: The Allison Epstein story.
Allison: [laughs] Exactly.
Ann: So, just a sec. I’m putting in the scores. So, 6, 8, 9, 0. I love that everyone you talk about is…
Allison: A 23.
Ann: It’s like a little neighbourhood.
Allison: All of my favourites.
Ann: A little neighbourhood of just little dirtbags. Oh, I think. Oh! Christopher Marlowe, 22.5.
Allison: There we go. [laughs] Fabulous. Some day I’m going to get a 34 and it’s going to blow your mind.
Ann: I don’t know if you can.
Allison: I don’t think so either because they’re either significant or they’re scandalous, but they’re never two things. [laughs]
Ann: No, they’re never more than two things. I do want to mention we do have the, there’s two categories I want to consider for Adrienne. There’s the Lady Jane Seymour Memorial Award for Outstanding Supporting Performance. And then there’s also the next higher level, the Jewelled Tortoise Award for Legendary Friend Behaviour.
Allison: Okay. I know what I would say, but I’m biased.
Ann: I would put her in the Jewelled Tortoise, I think.
Allison: Okay, I would too because she’s a legend.
Ann: Like, the going to jail is… That’s what, like, I think she was such a good partner, supporting person in his life, just sort of like, they loved each other so much and they were best friends. But then when she takes it to a Jewelled Tortoise level is where she’s just like, “Fuck this, I’m tired of being away from my husband. I’m just going to take my children and go be in jail with him.” That’s like…
Allison: Yeah. That’s love, babes.
Ann: No, like, that’s the David Rizzio level of commitment to your person.
Allison: That’s, like, augh! So good. They’re just good for each other. And the wrong kind of wife for the Marquis de Lafayette would have been like, “Oh, woe is me. My husband is off doing yet another revolution.” She was like, “No, that’s just what he does. I’m here for him. I love this about him.” It’s just, they’re perfect for each other.
Ann: It’s so nice. It’s so rare to have a nice love story on this podcast. Sometimes I’m like, “Oh, what do I have scheduled for coming up the week of, you know, Valentine’s Day?” And it’s always like, [squirms] no! It has never yet worked out to be a nice story because there’s almost never a nice story! But this one is, like, their love story.
And Lafayette, wow. Allison, thank you. He really connects things in such a… Like, Season Seven, Part One, the American Revolution stuff to Part Two, the French Revolution stuff. And then… Anyway.
Allison: He saw everything so he’s a very good context historical person if you want to, like, “What happened between 1770 and 1820?” He saw all of it and it’s incredible and very efficient of him to do that.
Ann: Yeah. And he was, like, in the midst of all of it, because, you know, sometimes I look at people who were born in, you know, 1927 and they died in 2006. I’m just like, my god, like, the world that they saw and how it changed! But it’s not just like he saw it. It was, like, he was there in it.
Allison: Yeah. All of it. It’s incredible.
Ann: Like, charging his way to the front of all of that.
Allison: Yeah. Age 73.
Ann: Yeah. Life did not happen to him.
Allison: No, he happened to life. [laughs]
Ann: Yes. It’s like Céline Dion, “The shoes do not wear me. I wear the shoes.”
Allison: Exactly. I think that’s the first Marquis de Lafayette-Céline Dion comparison I’ve ever heard, but I support it.
Ann: And all of the French Revolution stuff I’m hearing, just I keep thinking back to the— We haven’t talked about this, but I want to now, the Olympic opening ceremony.
Allison: [gasps] Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Ann: The unhinged France-ness.
Allison: It was the most France of anything I’ve ever seen.
Ann: It made me think, like the context of the two (so far) French movies that I’ve made you and want to watch for Vulgarpiece Theatre, I was just like, “Oh, those are not aberrations. That’s just what France does. This is what their media is like.” It’s just, like, headless Maria Antoinettes, like, death metal music, like… The Phantom of the Opera in a fencing mask running around the rooftops and then finding the barricades from Les Mis?
Allison: Insanity. Just, at any moment, a man could have come out and taken his secret second arm out of his coat and waved it around and said, “In fact, I am the wizard.” That’s a that’s a Vulgarpiece Theatre deep cut. It’s not a deep cut, I tell everybody about it.
Ann: Those opening ceremonies. It just, like, hearing you explaining the French Revolution and everything. I’m just, like, France has always been like this.
Allison: The most!
Ann: This is the spirit of this nation. Like, born in the bosom of Fredegund and just revolutions, decapitations.
Allison: Forever. Yeah.
Ann: Like, people watched those opening ceremonies and like, “Oh, I didn’t care for that. Oh, that was weird.” I was just like, “That was the best thing I’ve ever seen in my life.”
Allison: That was made just for you and your Queen Margot-loving heart.
Ann: Although, I will say there was a part where they were like, they talked about how there’s not as many statues of women as men in France and so they’re like, “And so we created these statues and we’re going to donate them to France.” And every time a woman came up, I’m like, “Rachel? Is there going to be a statue of Rachel?” And it kept not being a statue of Rachel and that’s the one thing I missed, there was no… Although, there was the part where that one woman was wearing sort of a French flag dress and she was singing “La Marseillaise” and I’m like, “That’s Rachel”
Allison: That’s Rachel, she was present.
Ann: That’s the spirit of Rachel, is in that one. But honestly, every time a statue came up, I’m like, “Who’s it going to be?”
Allison: “Is it one of my girls?”
Ann: And it was none of my girls. [laughs] But still…
Allison, so tell everybody about your book that you have coming up.
Allison: Yes. My new book is coming out in February, February 25th. It is called Fagin the Thief, and it is about what it says in the title, which is a retelling of Oliver Twist from Fagin’s point of view. I love it very much. I’m very excited to share it with people and it is coming up alarmingly fast.
Ann: And it is available for preorder and preorders are so important. It’s a way… Like, everyone’s going to read it anyway so it’s just good to preorder it first, because the more people who preorder it, the more bookstores are like, “Oh! People are interested in this book,” and the bookstores buy more copies for other people to serendipitously find it.
Allison: Absolutely. Also, if you did not pick up, Let the Dead Bury the Dead in hardcover. It is coming out in paperback probably by the time you hear this episode. So, it is now easier to put in a bag, lighter to carry around, still got the same beautiful cover on it.
Ann: I was going to say, is it a different cover?
Allison: No, it is the same one.
Ann: The same cover. Well, it’s a lovely cover.
Allison: I love that cover, yeah.
Ann: And you can just you can just make a paperback size, it doesn’t need to change entirely. And your first book, tell people about your first book, too in case people have never heard of you before.
Allison: Hi! Welcome to new listeners. My first book is A Tip for the Hangman, it is a Kit Marlowe spy story, which is why I was on this podcast to talk about Kit Marlowe. That one is available as well wherever you buy your books if you’re in North America.
Ann: Every now and then I download the TikTok app and look at it to see if anyone has sent me any messages and then I watch them and then I delete it again because I don’t care for it. But anyway, somebody had made a video of, like, her book haul and she was just like, “I get all my historical fiction recommendations from Vulgar History,” and so then she was holding up, she’s like, “I got this and this,” and she’s like, “And I got this, it’s by Allison Epstein, I’ve heard her on the podcast so many times. I’m so excited to read it,” and it was your first book, it was A Tip for the Hangman.
Allison: Heck yeah! My first baby.
Ann: I know! I was just like, “Aww!” So, yes, you are a Vulgar History celebrity. I’m so happy to have you back on. Lana will be on in the new year because she’ll be talking about Maria Theresa when we get to the like…
Allison: Oh, her fave!
Ann: Yeah, no, exactly. She’s going to explain the Habsburgs, much like I brought you on to explain the French Revolution.
Allison: Thanks for not bringing me on to explain the Habsburgs, because I cannot.
Ann: I can’t either and that’s why she’s going to be on. But yeah, just for people who are wondering where my semi-regular co-hosts, we’re all really busy.
Allison: Ann is just writing a book, no big deal.
Ann: Yeah, NBD. And Allison, so tell people also your Substack and how they can follow you there.
Allison: Yes, that is the social media I’m most active on now that Twitter has gone to hell. You can find me on Substack. If you search “Dirtbags Through the Ages.” It is a biweekly Substack where I talk about the weird, wild, and shitty people in history and why I love them. There is a Marquis to Lafayette newsletter up there, even though he is not shitty, he is just weird and wacky and I love him so I made an exception to count him in there.
Ann: Well, and that was part of like, I knew he was your guy and you wrote the Substack, and I know you’re busy but I was like, “I bet Allison could just talk off the top of her head about Lafayette.” [Allison laughs] This is not asking you to do any extra work because I know you’re very busy.
Allison: No. There was no additional research done for this episode. This was, “What are all the things that I love about Lafayette? Let me write them down and double-check the dates.”
Ann: That’s perfect. So, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast. I’ll let the listeners know that next week we’re going to be having our Halloween special and it’s going to be an appropriately gruesome French Revolution-era story with another special guest. But people will find out what that is next week.
Thank you, Allison!
Allison: Thank you, Ann!
—————
So, Allison gave you all the info about how to follow them on Substack and special order, pre-order her new book, and I’ll just tell you some stuff about me. So, first of all, I did a guest appearance on a podcast called Ye Olde Crime podcast, where they discuss the funny, strange and obscure crimes of yesteryear. It’s a delightful series if you’re into historical, true crime-type stuff. And so, they have an ongoing series where they invite people like me, other podcasters, on to… It’s called “Can You Crack the Cramp Word?” which are all Victorian slang terms and that’s what the show is. Like, I came on and I talked a bit about Vulgar History and how I started the show and things. And then I was given some obscure Victorian slang terms and I had to see if I could guess what they meant. And you’ll have to listen to Ye Olde Crime podcast to see how I did.
Also, I will just let you know that there’s lots of ways you can follow me and those podcasts and keep up with what’s up. So, I’m on Instagram @VulgarHistoryPod, and I’m also on Threads @VulgarHistoryPod, and I have a Patreon, which is where I would encourage if you want to get all my updates, I mean, that’s the place where I put them all. So, you can join the Patreon for free if you want. It’s Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. And when you go in there, then you get all my various updates about things that are going on, including a new Patreon-only podcast, casual podcast is what I’m calling it. What that means is I can record them and post them right away. And Cristina, our longtime editor, Cristina Lumague is not involved in this one because it’s I don’t want to put the pressure on myself. I just like making it be loosey-goosey and free, and casual. And so, what this is, it’s called Ann Is Writing A Podcast— Sorry, fix that. What it’s called is it’s called Ann Is Writing A Book: Rebel of the Regency, for I am writing a book about Caroline of Brunswick. I just like to be able to turn on the microphone every now and then when I just have things that I need to talk to somebody about who understands what I’m talking about and those people are you. So, if you want to listen to all that, just join the Patreon and you can hear that. I’ll also be posting all the book updates and stuff there, too.
Anyway, once you’ve joined the Patreon, if you decide that you want to take it up to the next level for one dollar a month, you get early, ad-free access to all upcoming episodes and ad-free access to all previous episodes of Vulgar History. If you pledge at least five dollars or more a month on the Patreon, then you get access to our Discord, the “Vulgar History Salon,” where you can chat with me and with other Tits Out Brigade members. Also for the five dollars a month, you get to listen to other bonus podcast episodes that I do there. So, Vulgarpiece Theatre, where I talk about costume dramas. We’re on a bit of a hiatus because Allison, busy with Fagin the Thief coming out; me busy with writing a book; Lana Wood Johnson, busy with undisclosed secret Lana projects. So, hopefully, hopefully, we’ll be getting back into that soon. But if you just join the Patreon, you can listen to all of our previous episodes, which are all a good time. I think the less we like a movie, the more fun the podcast is. But I think that’s how it usually goes with, like, movie discussion podcasts. There’s also episodes on there at that five-dollar-a-month level of So This Asshole where I talk about men from history who are terrible, not like Lafayette. Lafayette, not a So This Asshole candidate because he was cool.
I also am on Substack, which is, like, a newsletter thing where I post essays or as people call them, “pieces” about women from history and maybe that will expand into other genders, too. Who knows? We’ll see. But right now, currently, I’m writing a series called “Difficult Women.” And actually, because it’s October and Halloween is coming up, I’ve been posting essays about some Halloween-adjacent women we’ve talked about on this podcast. Like, I posted about Elizabeth Woodville, who is maybe a witch, maybe descended from what was it? Like, mermaid? Luxembourg mermaid witches. I posted about Mary Shelley, I’ve posted about Elizabeth Báthory. So, anyway, if you want to experience what it’s like to read my words instead of hearing me say them, it’s on Substack at VulgarHistory.Substack.com.
We also work alongside, hand-in-hand with our brand partner Common Era Jewelry, which is a women-owned small business that makes beautiful heirloom jewelry inspired by women and other people, but mostly women, from classical history. The designs are all inspired by women from classical mythology, or women from classical history, except for Anne Boleyn who’s, she just gets to be in just because she’s cool. So, there’s lots of people from… I’m just thinking, like, the Halloween vibes of it all, Hecate is there, and not really Halloween vibes, but just, like, Sappho was there for all the sapphics in the listening audience. They have this new beautiful pendant that’s about fertility and childbirth. Anyway, it’s a wonderful company. I’m really happy to be partnered with them and Vulgar History listeners can always get 15% off all items from Common Era by going to CommonEra.com/Vulgar or using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout.
If you want to get some Vulgar History merchandise to be your Halloween costume, if you want to go in costume as a member of the Tits Out Brigade, you can go to VulgarHistory.com/Store where there’s lots of, again, I really want to emphasize the cozy, crew neck sweatshirt we have that Karyn Moynihan, friend of the podcast, designed that says “Vulgar History: Not taking history seriously since 2019.” By the time you listen to this, I think there should also be a new design there as well that you could also get on a cozy, crew neck sweatshirt if you wanted. It was inspired by a recent silly review message that somebody left me where they criticized, they said that this podcast is poorly researched which is, like, if you— I would never show you a picture of my messy kitchen table/desk where I record this and do my writing but the amount of library books, interlibrary loans, like, obscure, used books that I’ve had to purchase because that’s the only way I could get a certain piece of information, it’s like, come at me, bro. There’s lots of things you can criticize me about, but my research ethic? No. Come on. So anyway, to vent my frustrations about that, I commissioned friend of the podcast, Siobhan Gallagher, who made some of the other— Actually it’s sort of a series that Siobhan has done for me of when people say silly things about the show, I put them into cute designs that she makes. So, there’s “Poorly researched,” it’s in the same sort of visual series as the one that says, what is it? Like, “Unscholarly and rambling.” Anyway, so Vulgar History store, VulgarHistory.com/Store if you’re in the US or if you’re outside the US, go to VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com.
If you want to get in touch with me, I would love it if you did, you can get in touch with me if you go to VulgarHistory.com, there’s a form there and the form sends an email to me and then I’ll see your email. And otherwise, next week, we’re having our annual Halloween special episode. Something I have to really emphasize: it’s going to be gruesome and it’s going to be a good time and I’m going to have a very special guest. So, until then, keep your pants on and your tits out.
Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com.
References:
As mentioned in the episode, here is more info on the French revolutionary calendar.
Allison’s new book Fagin the Thief comes out in February 2025. Click here to preorder a copy.
—
Get 15% off all the gorgeous jewellery and accessories at common.era.com/vulgar or go to commonera.com and use code VULGAR at checkout
—
Get Vulgar History merch at vulgarhistory.com/store (best for US shipping) and vulgarhistory.redbubble.com (better for international shipping)
—
Support Vulgar History on Patreon
—
Vulgar History is an affiliate of Bookshop.org, which means that a small percentage of any books you click through and purchase will come back to Vulgar History as a commission. Use this link to shop there and support Vulgar History.