Vulgar History Podcast
Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier of Saint-Georges (with Julian Ledford)
October 9, 2024
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and if you can hear purring behind me, that is my co-host, who is my cat, Hepburn. So, this episode is part of Season Seven, and Season Seven of Vulgar History has the theme, How Do You Solve A Problem Like Marie Antoinette? And what that means in terms of this show is we’re looking at the world around Marie Antoinette, the world that she lived in, which was a pretty chaotic time. There was so much change going on at such a rapid pace, kind of like today. Astrologically, things were also similar, if you’re someone who is into that sort of stuff.
So, in the first part of Season Seven, what we looked at was a lot of what was going on in the Americas. We talked quite a bit about enslavement and what that meant. And then this part, Season Seven, Part Two, we’re looking at what was happening back in France. Today’s story is somebody who really combines what was happening in France, the Versailles of it all, as well as Marie Antoinette herself, makes an appearance in this. This is somebody who was around during the French Revolution, which is an important part of this century that we’re talking about as well as this season, and he also connects back to the slavery that was going on in the Caribbean and in the Americas at this time, the chattel slavery of people from Africa.
And I say “he,” if you notice that, we usually talk about women on the show, but we’re taking a broader scope this season, and I think rightly so because this was an era where lots of people were leading revolutionary lives. And I really have long wanted to discuss this person on the podcast, just took me a while to find out— I mean, it’s so ideal for this season just because of all the things this story incorporates. But I also really wanted to do justice to this figure who is Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier of Saint-Georges. I really wanted to find a guest who could really help illuminate the story.
And so, first, I want to say he has come up on this podcast before, Chevalier de Saint-Georges. If you listen back to the episode I did a bit ago about the Chevalière d’Éon, who was the amazing sword-fighting spy, trans woman, I did that episode with Maya Deane and Maya actually brought up the Chevalier de Saint-Georges in that because Chevalier de Saint-Georges had stuff to do with the Chevalière d’Éon. I want to let you know ‘chevalier’, ‘chevalière’ means ‘knight,’ and that is why that is both of their titles. Anyway, so my interest was piqued at that point and then also, the local—I’m going to talk about this in the interview you’re about to hear—the local symphony orchestra here where I live in Saskatoon did a concert of the works of the Chevalier de Saint-Georges and I really enjoyed it, and there was in the program just writing about who he was as a person and I was just like, “Oh, I really want to learn more about him. I want to talk about him on the podcast.” But again, I really wanted to do justice to the story, I really wanted to have a special guest and I found a special guest.
So, today’s guest who you’re going to hear is Julian Ledford, who is assistant professor of French and French studies at Sewanee: The University of the South in Tennessee. So, he specializes in early modern French and Francophone literature with a particular focus on Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier of Saint-Georges, as well as 18th-century women writers’ contributions to discussions on masculinities. He was so generous with his time to come and join us on this podcast.
And I do want to mention before we get into it just what some of the sources were from my research. He does his own research. But what I consulted to understand the story before I spoke with him was a book called The Chevalier de Saint-Georges: Virtuoso of the Sword and the Bow by Gabriel Banat, as well as two academic articles, “The Chevalier de Saint-Georges, Man of Music and Gentlemen-at-Arms,” by also Gabriel Banat, and then also Julian Ledford’s essay, “Joseph Boulogne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, and the Problem with Black Mozart.” So, there are links to all of those things in the show notes if you want to do your own research as well after this. But otherwise, I’m just going to get myself out of the way because I’m excited for you all to hear. I’m so excited to talk about Chevalier de Saint-Georges on this podcast. So, please enjoy this interview with Julian Ledford.
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Ann: So Julian, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us.
Julian: Thanks for having me, Ann.
Ann: I’m very excited to have this conversation with you, and I’m really glad that you agreed to come on here because when I’m doing my research and I find somebody who is clearly passionate about the person I’m researching, I think, “I should just get that person on the show.” [both laugh] So, the first question I have for you is, do remember how you first found out about Joseph Bologne, The Chevalier de Saint-Georges?
Julian: I do agree with you that I am passionate about this work. And it’s odd to say, but it was just a random, random happenstance, just happened randomly in my life. I stumbled upon Saint-Georges, I don’t want to say it was fate because that makes it seem, I don’t know, that I was destined to meet this person but it’s really just a random search online.
Now, what led me to the search is interesting because growing up in Jamaica after college and in grad school, classical music was my entire thing. I did piano, I studied composition, I went to a music conservatory for grad work and I thought I knew, you know, everything— Not everything else to know about classical music, but I thought I knew the greats. I could maybe go on Jeopardy! and do very, very well in that sphere. But trying to merge my interest in music with my study of French literature was interesting. I really struggled to find a true connection between the two, French studies, Francophone studies and music.
So, I was encouraged by a former chair of the department at a school I was at to do some investigation, do some introspection, try to find out what would interest your students and what would also be your passion. So, I was sort of aimless for a while and happened to look up 18th-century French composers. And this name stuck out to me, a name I didn’t recognize. I clicked on it and what happened next was, you know, a series of me being embarrassed, which is hard to say, but I just thought, “I didn’t ever hear about this man.” And he’s not just, from what I’m seeing, not just a flash in the pan, there is so much to know about him. So, that just led me on this path of discovery, trying to undo my ignorance and doing as much as I can to share his message of his work with my students, my colleagues, with anyone who will listen, I guess. So, that’s what led me to Saint-Georges.
Ann: I wanted to just let you know where I first heard about him as well because it was also fairly random, which was, where I live in Canada… So, I attend the local symphony performances when I can, and just, whatever they’re performing, I go and I hear and I enjoy. And they were doing a concert of Saint-Georges’s music. So, just they advertised it, and I thought, “Oh well, I’ve never heard of this composer.” And then I went and in the program, there was maybe a page sort of explaining who he was and there was the famous portrait of him. And I thought this is such an interesting person.
Julian: Exactly.
Ann: And then the concert, too. I really like the music. Like, I love the music. I thought, I really appreciate this man as a composer, but his life story was so interesting.
Julian: Exactly. It’s the two things, you know, it’s the talent that’s out there, you know, the result. But then just, you know, the mystery, I would say, surrounding his life and just the intrigue there, you know, it’s so much to learn and so much to explore.
Ann: So, if you’re here to kind of help us explain who he was, I mean, as much as we can in an hour. So, what do we know about who his parents were and where he grew up?
Julian: He was born in Guadeloupe so French territory, colonized by the French in the Caribbean. His mother was called Nanon, and she was an enslaved African born in Guadeloupe, but you know, into slavery on a plantation there. His father was an enslaver, a white planter from France who lived in Guadeloupe. And so, you know, of course, his father was married and had other children, but eventually had an affair with Saint-Georges’s mother, and that’s how he was born. So technically, he was also born into slavery on the island of Guadeloupe. Now, he happened to be the only son of his father. So, as you know, he was the one who would eventually, if anything, carry on the family legacy. But being an illegitimate child, yeah, but it’s true he was not considered to be a natural son, an actual son of his father because of the condition of his mother being enslaved. But being the only son, though, he was given a lot of attention.
This is where he gets a little curious because, I mean, he could have been abandoned, he could have been left on the plantation to follow the fate of his mom, which is to have a life of servitude and then eventually, the earned freedom through some sort of benevolence on the part of the father or something else. His dad seemed to place a lot of attention on him, like, he seemed to want him to distinguish himself in different circles. And this would be something that Saint-George’s father learned or maybe saw, patterned for him by his own parents or maybe other men in the family. You know, if you’re a Bologne, you’re supposed to take care of your children, especially your sons. It could have been that. It could have been something that, I don’t know, spectacular or something sort of, I don’t know, distinguishing that was already innate in young Saint-Georges that made his father want to, you know, pay attention to him and maybe invest in his future. It’s also true that Nanon, his mother, you know, was very beautiful and was actually loved by Saint-George’s father. So, it was more than just a casual fling that brought about Saint-Georges. It was true emotion, true love, true affection for his mother and eventually true affection for the son, Saint-Georges, that I think made the father want to invest in him.
So, you know, it’s still unclear how he eventually became so talented in composition and, you know, music and violin. But we know that his father was a patron of the arts, he’s someone who, you know, would have paid to have his son get the best training, right? Because if the son is supposed to distinguish himself in courtly circles, then through music and through maybe the combative arts would be, you know, two domains and Saint-Georges should have some preparation. And so, I think his father was very, very active in making sure that in the future Saint-Georges could choose between the two or maybe, you know, excel in both music and also in, as you know, fencing eventually. His fate from his birth and his, you know, born on the 25th of December, which is also very interesting. But his fate seemed to have been affected by true emotion, true affection for him, yeah, and for his mother and also just the willingness to invest in him as the only son of his father.
Ann: I think, just from what I was reading and from— I’m not a musician myself, but you would know this better than I would but for somebody to excel as much as he did at violin playing and at composition, like, he would have had to have… People are trying to backwards deduce what was his life like and he has to have been trained from childhood to have reached the level he was.
Julian: I think so. You know, he must have been some sort of prodigy before because, you know, in his twenties, if he’s already the rage in his twenties, he couldn’t have started playing violin as a teenager, it doesn’t seem to make much sense. He would have been exposed to the art, to music, to composition, perhaps to, you know, that instrument at a much earlier age. You’re right, you know, some people are probably saying, some researchers are saying that probably an instructor from a different Caribbean country and he probably spent time, you know, outside of Guadeloupe training before he got to France. Once again, you know, I haven’t found any documentation to prove that, but it stands to reason that if in his twenties he was so, you know, already established as a musician, he must have had prior training.
Ann: So, he was brought to France to attend school primarily, I think, right?
Julian: Yes. Yes.
Ann: So, there was only so much education that he could be provided in Guadeloupe. [Julian laughs] So, his father brought him to France, and this is where, I mean, you mentioned, so that we’ve talked about the music, but he was also amazing at fencing. So, he became known from a young age as this expert fencer. So, there was one notable fencing match that he was involved with and this led him to some changes in his circumstances. Can you talk about that?
Julian: Sure, yeah. So, this talented boy from Guadeloupe not only was able to distinguish himself as a violinist, but as a fencer and it’s true that he was the underdog, you know, he was called, you know, he was a mulatto, he was a person of colour, he was of mixed race, you know, and having someone of his diversity do well in fencing was unheard of, you know, this was not a normal thing. So, no one would bet on him to win any sort of fencing exhibition in some fencing match. But it so happened that he was, you know, getting a lot of attention because of his diversity, because of his, you know, peculiar circumstances, by many people including the king, those who were interested in gambling, I would say, or maybe placing bets on who would become Europe’s greatest fencer or France’s greatest fencer. And there was Saint-Georges who was set up eventually to fence against Picard, who was, you know, at the time the leading fencer in the country. And of course, I think a lot of persons would have bet against Saint-Georges, meaning that they thought he would lose and apparently, he did not, you know, which of course was a huge shock to have this young, unheard-of, person of colour, who’s sort of very mysterious, come to France and actually outdo one of the leading fencers.
So, because of that, if maybe just as a symbolic gesture, the king, you know, granted him the title of Chevalier, and it meant that he would be a part of the entourage to protect the king. So, a part of the cavalry, those who were riding horses or who have weapons, can be called upon to protect the king and protect the court. And so, I think that was eventually what his father would have wanted for him. Like, you know, “This is exactly why I invested in Saint-Georges, my son, was for him to distinguish himself this way.” So, his father must have been very proud. But that was only the beginning, as we know, this was not just a one-off thing. He would eventually become, you know, they call him the Hercules, the French Hercules pretty much because of his fencing and his talent in other sports as well. You know, athleticism in general, he just dominated all those spheres and earned the title of Chevalier. It wasn’t given to him because of, you know, his blood or inheritance or any sort of, you know, lineage that he had, but through his talent for fencing and other athletic feats.
Ann: I was doing the research for this and reading just while the Paris Olympics were on, which was interesting because some of the places, [Julian laughs] some of the places that they were having exhibitions were very ancient, you know, Versailles and things. But I was also thinking about when in terms of Saint-Georges and his talent and his skill level, I was… So, that made me think like, “Okay, he’s like Simone Biles.” He is so impressive beyond anything anyone has ever seen, and that just sort of framed it for me because I don’t know about a fencing celebrity, but I know about Simone Biles! I know who people are.
Julian: You are so right. You are so right because, I mean, I think it’s hard for us to fathom how great he was. You know, because… We think, okay, you know, in today’s world, we have athletes, we have the Olympics, as you’ve said, we have different stars in different countries who are very popular, especially in tennis as well, you know? A lot of tennis stars who make millions of dollars just for showing up. And for us, it’s almost normalized. But go back to the 18th century, you know, with this man who was unknown, pretty much, and for him to rise to the very, very top, the pinnacle of the performing arts, also the, as I said, athletics, was unheard of, you know? He was truly great. He was exceptionally tremendous and it’s almost hard for us to understand that, but you’re completely right. If you think of him as the, like, one of the first Simone Bileses of France, I think that’s starting to help us understand how great of a legacy he had.
Ann: Well, and that’s why it’s interesting because just in me reading kind of the biography, he sort of pivots to turn more to his skill at music. And there was, in the one book I read, it was imagining what would the audience think if they show up to this symphony concert, and you see, “Wait, why is Simone Biles playing first violin?” [Julian laughs] And then, and then it turns out she is Yo-Yo Ma. She’s also… [laughs]
Julian: [laughs] I know. Right! Right, exactly. In this one being, you have such, such talent. And it’s true, I mean, something else to think about is that today we sort of separate skill, we say, “Okay, you have to choose either going to be in the performing arts or you’re going to be an athlete. You have to choose between,” I don’t know, “the sciences or the arts or humanities,” or whatever it is, you know. But at the time, you know, excellence had no bounds; it wasn’t a sort of decision whether or not you’d excel in one thing and not the other. But why not excel at everything that you touch, everything that’s maybe given to you? And for Saint-Georges, I don’t think he had the option to not excel, which we can talk about later. But moving from fencing and adding the violin, adding music, it seemed for him, I think, was, you know, what he needed to do to survive, what he needed to do to continue his social climb in French society.
Ann: Actually, can we talk about that for a minute? So, how he was accepted, his social climb, because he was accepted everywhere.
Julian: Yeah! Yeah, this is true. And I think, I hope this doesn’t sound as if I’m, you know, being reductive or I’m trying to injure or damage his legacy, but he was someone to bet on, as I said before, when you have Saint-Georges on your roster, on the program, if he’s involved in your performance, if he’s involved in whatever you’re doing, you’ll have bodies in the seats, you’ll have people paying to see him, right? So, he was someone who would guarantee success, financial success, right? And so, you know, people were clamouring to see him, clamouring to have him on their stage.
So, it’s true that that fame that he probably first earned as a fencer carried over to the domain of music, and it opened many doors for him. He was invited into, you know, different spaces, dominated by men, by women; he was invited to, you know, take part in various concerts. He was a sort of, I don’t know, maybe not a pawn, but he was usually sent to secure alliances between different courts, you know? So, once again, he was so talented and, you know, he had his finger on the, he understood taste as well, he understood what people liked, he understood what would excite the masses. And so, yeah, he was… You could not go wrong with inviting Saint-Georges.
Ann: Exactly, that if he’s at your party, then people are going to come to your party.
Julian: Yeah, and they’ll come back. They’ll come and they’ll stay and they’ll make it, you know? It’s not a one-off thing like, “Oh, let’s go see this exotic person, you know, do a backflip or let’s, you know, sing a little bit.” No. “Let’s see what this person has done in the time since we’ve seen him last. What has he come up with in the last couple of months or a couple of weeks, you know? What, what new invention will there be?” So, he was someone to have once, but someone to invite again, which made him, you know, very successful.
Ann: And I think that’s almost, I would say… He excelled in fencing and athletics, he excelled in the musical sphere, and I would say he also excelled socially. Just his charisma, his personality, that was also part of it. People just liked to be around him, it sounds like.
Julian: Yeah, I think you’re right. You know, he was, I’ve seen it mentioned maybe in three separate places in the archives that he had a certain, maybe not violent, but violent, vibrant temperament. You know, he was a lively person. You know, and so not that he was, he would stir up drama or he would be, you know, thrown to maybe temper tantrums, not that, but he was someone who maybe had a very active mind, would take parts in different discussions, he would always have an opinion.
But to counter that, he was someone who really believed in friendship; he had close friends. You know, in a poem that was written about him, you know, when his— I think you’ve mentioned his famous portrait that you saw at this concert you went to recently, you know, and that portrait also had a poem written to actually be published at the same time. And the poem speaks about his love of his friends, you know, and that the love for his friends actually gave him a source of comfort and helped him to navigate what was a very, I guess, difficult life for him, right? So, we have a very sweet, kind, loyal person and someone who is also extremely animated, who, you know, sure, from time to time would get into maybe different scraps, maybe he would say too much or maybe get involved in, you know, maybe the wrong company. But his friends would always have to forgive him for that because he made it for it by being such a loyal and, you know, kind and loving person. Yeah.
Ann: So, can you talk about… Just in terms of, from what I was reading, sort of his first major musical group, I guess I’ll call it, it was Le Concert des Amateurs?
Julian: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. This is one of the groups, I think, that, you know, actually helped his climb in French society. And so, the Concert des Amateurs was created by Gossec, you know, who was a French composer, well-established French composer, violinist, you know, someone who had tried before in the past to create his own orchestra. He had some success, but, you know, nothing really long-lasting. And then what he did, Gossec, was that he knew about Saint-Georges’s talent, he knew about Saint-Georges’s pull, you know, that he was able to attract crowds, attract different audience goers, he dedicated some music and it was six violin concertos I think it was, to Saint-Georges to say, “These are written for you,” meaning that, you know, “It would be an honour for you to perform them,” right? And so, by doing that, Gossec sort of solidified this relation between himself and Saint-Georges.
And then eventually, Saint-Georges was, you know, once this orchestra was created, Saint-Georges was invited to play, you know, with the Amateurs. I think with this orchestra, it was very interesting, it was a mixture of, let’s say, professional musicians and also the amateurs, Les Amateurs, you know. So, it was a mixture of people of different talents, different levels of, I say, maybe, skill. So, there is Saint-Georges, who is probably one of the most skilled violinists, who’s playing pieces that were written for him by Gossec. And if he’s on the stage, as we’ve said before, then you know you’re in for something that is truly spectacular, truly exciting and passionate music.
So, Gossec was thrilled to have Saint-Georges on the stage because you have, you know, at once a thriving orchestra with people coming to your performances, people paying to be there. Also, if you have music that is written for Saint-Georges, right, and music that’s performed by Saint-Georges, it’s true that different orchestras would pay to rent this music, rent the score, right? So, it’s a lot of income, a lot of, you know, revenue coming into this orchestra and to Saint-Georges. So, I believe, you know, it makes sense for him not just to be a visitor, maybe playing the first violin, being the chair, but eventually to become the leader of Le Concerts des Amateurs. So it was, again, a no-brainer. If he’s linked to your orchestra, your orchestra will be successful, which it was.
Ann: And I think also, I just want to clarify for people, that Saint-Georges was a working musician. He needed this income for himself as well. He wasn’t independently wealthy.
Julian: No, exactly. So, you know, he was also benefiting from this too, that’s completely true. I mean, we say he couldn’t drop any catches. I’ll try to explain that. I think it’s a sports reference [chuckles] in baseball or maybe cricket. You know, if you’re in the outfield and there’s a fly ball or something, if you catch it, it means that you get the person out who’s batting and your team kind of, you know, moves closer to winning. So, that was Saint-Georges in the outfield; he needed to make those catches, he needed to have those connections, he needed to be invited back and needed to have music dedicated to him for him to actually have to make his living. So, that’s completely correct, yeah.
Ann: You know, and he was also composing at the same time as well.
Julian: Yes. And I think what’s interesting there is that he didn’t really care to repeat traditions, you know? He was willing to break with traditions to maybe, you know, try new harmonies, to invite his— I say, “invite.” Not force, but invite musicians to, you know, develop different hand positions to perform his music. You know, he required, you know, musicians to study his work and to find ways, find new ways to perform it, find new ways of playing the instrument in order to perform his work. And that just drove people crazy in a good way; it drove interest, it drove, you know, there’s just this curiosity about classical music at the time. And as I said, it would make sense. If he’s written these, these scores and they’re in these libraries, then different orchestras, not only in France, but in around Europe would want to, you know, rent the scores and have their orchestras play the music and see if their orchestras can attract the same sort of, you know, crowd and, you know, a fury, good, good fury about this new type of music. So, he was ingenious in that sense and very, very smart, Saint-Georges.
Ann: Can you describe the type of composition he would do sometimes? I forget the name of it, but it’s where you have two soloists almost duelling each other.
Julian: Yes! Les Symphonies Concertante. You know, so it’s true you have this, let’s say, binary. You have the orchestra playing against soloists; not one soloist, but soloists. And then the soloists have their own tête-à-tête, their own duel going on, their own battle. And, you know, some researchers or historians will say that it’s almost as if Saint-Georges was staging a fencing match on the stage; this is jousting, this, you know, back and forth between the soloists. And then a third dimension would be the orchestra coming in to maybe punctuate that little duel happening on stage between the soloists. So, you know, he was considered, Saint-Georges, one of the pioneers of this musical form. Other composers around Europe would eventually, you know, try their hand at this art form. But he’s considered to be one of the pioneers, if not the pioneer of the symphonie concertante. Yeah.
But, you know, it’s, can you imagine it’s adding this dimension of combat, the art of combat, you know, on the stage in this new, dramatic spectacular form? You know, I think it was… It went over well, let’s say that, with the audience at the time. [chuckles]
Ann: I love the way he described it as almost, like a fencing match. And of course, it was! Because that was, that was who he was also. The way that he combined his two passions, it’s interesting.
Julian: Very, very interesting. And I’ll tell you, I have not been, this is embarrassing to say, but I’ve not been to a live performance of Saint-Georges’s music. I’ve seen, you know, different videos on YouTube and, you know, I’ve tried to watch different documentaries but I’ve not yet been to a live performance. So, you’re a way ahead of me in that regard. [chuckles] But do you remember what sort of emotions you had? Was it thrilling to see this on stage when you went in Canada?
Ann: Well, I feel like it was, you and I would be the opposite situations, because I went to the concert and I learned about him at the same time I heard the music, whereas you would be going to the concert with so much knowledge and so much expectation. [Julian laughs] So, the whole thing, like, reading his biography in the program and hearing the music… And for me, with classical music, I’m a sort of person who I don’t… I know the major pieces, you know? And I like to go to a concert and hear a piece that I know. And when I go to a concert and I don’t know the musician, I may enjoy it, I may not enjoy it. But this one, I had never heard any of the music before and it was all— There was something about it. I just remember it was… It was delightful. The music was fun.
Julian: That’s the word. That’s the word: fun.
Ann: So, everything we’ve been talking about, he’s so impressive, he’s embraced by society, all of these things are doing well. And then, we haven’t talked a lot about how his race affected his life, but it really suddenly kind of stopped his momentum. And this is when he wanted to become the director of the Paris Opera…
Julian: Right, right, right.
Ann: … and he was stopped. Can you explain that situation?
Julian: It’s true that we haven’t mentioned a lot about his race and it’s, it makes it seem as if it was of no consequence, that, you know, his talent was what mattered, talent and his ability to make money so nothing about race. But it’s true that, I think it’s the same today in certain spheres, I would say, that if you’re a person of colour in, you know, a domain that is usually dominated by persons who were maybe I say white, you could say that, you’re only expected to be so good, you’re only allowed to go so far, you know? You can be my neighbour, we can coexist, but there’s no position, there’s no way that you’re going to become superior to me, that I will take, you know, I’ll take direction from you. I think that’s exactly what happened with the Paris Opera.
He was in line to become the director of the Paris Opera, which was a huge institution, still is. Can you imagine a time where, you know, information and entertainment and what is called power and, I don’t know, the cultural power, all of that was found in the opera, you know? A lot of money as well; a lot of investors, a lot of exchange of great ideas also happened in the opera. Saint-Georges was supposed to be, was in line to become the director of the Paris Opera. And it’s true that the Paris Opera in mid-1760s was struggling, let’s say that, because, you know, a great French composer, Renaud, died and there was really no one who had come up as yet with any great skill to, you know, enliven or to reinvigorate the French opera. But of course, there’s Saint-Georges. And as I said, you always bet on that man to bring the people. So, they said, “Sure!” You know, it seems clear, a no-brainer, that Saint-Georges would become the new director.
As it turns out, not everyone was happy with that, including three actresses, I think, well, a singer, a dancer, and, you know, someone else linked to the French opera, who wrote a letter to Marie Antoinette and they’re complaining, they’re saying, “We just don’t see how we can be expected to take directions from a mulatto.” For them, it would be unheard of. And I’m not… There’s no apology for what they said, but, you know, at that time, you know, in this 18th century, how could the son of an enslaved African woman, a mulatto, a person of colour, be in a position of power to be superior to, you know, these three women, these three French women? And so, for them, it was like, well, you know, clearly this cannot happen. And apparently, because of that letter, it did cause us a stir in the court and Saint-Georges was not… Well, his candidacy was not put through for the director of the opera.
Other scholars will say that, you know, these actresses were acting out of fear, yes, that they thought that if Saint-Georges came in with his, you know, his spirit to break tradition, someone who did not really honour tradition as well, you know, he was known for breaking tradition, for being, to innovate in all parts of his life. They thought, “Well, if this new man comes in with his new ideas and his, you know, unorthodox ways of being, he’s going to fire us. He’s going to find new singers. He’s going to find new dancers, we won’t, we’ll be out of work,” you know? And so, some are saying it’s not just racism, but, you know, just their egos and their fear of not having, you know, a career. And so again, it’s not an apology for their behaviour, but it is true that Saint-Georges was made aware of his race, I do think, in a very striking way, that in 1777, in a year when he lost one of his best friends, this happened. You know, he must have been devastated.
Ann: I mean, I’m sure that every day of his life, his race and his skin colour would have affected what he was doing, but that was the first… It halted what just seemed like an inevitable progression of success for him.
Julian: Yes, yes. I agree. I mean, and, you know, what would have happened? Had he become the director of the Paris Opera, can you imagine? To have the first person of colour at that time to become, to occupy that huge position? What would have become of the French opera? What would have become of, you know, French music? You know, he could have been much more of a, I don’t know, his legacy, his prominence would have been much greater had he been allowed to occupy that space.
But he didn’t just go home and cry, you know, he did eventually go on to write, you know, other operas that were, you know, that were well-received, not that the first one wasn’t, but others were. So, it didn’t completely thwart his progress and it didn’t completely kill his spirit. But, you know, one has to wonder what would have happened had he been allowed to, you know, that language we use, it’s maybe not helpful because, you know, it’s still hypotheticals, but you’re completely right. It was a no-brainer, he should have been the director of the Paris Opera.
Ann: And so, he continued doing— I found that everything about his life surprised me, like, what he did next. So, the music was always there with him; he was always composing or playing. But then at this point in his life, he was called upon to travel to London to spend time with George, the Prince of Wales, and to do some fencing exhibitions. Can you talk about that?
Julian: [chuckles] Interesting. I think this goes back to his friendship with Philippe Égalité, the Duke of Orléans. So, Philipe le Gros, this was Philippe Égalité’s dad, was Saint-Georges’s greatest benefactor, I would say. He invited Saint-Georges to, you know, live in the courtly residences, he was very protective of Saint-Georges. And so, you know, Saint-Georges had a loyalty to this family. Now, Philippe le Gros, his son, Philippe Égalité was around the same age as Saint-Georges, so they kind of grew up together, they’re in the same entourage, of course. But it’s true that Philippe Égalité, he sort of wanted to become, he saw himself as becoming someone great. Someone who’s going to become the next king of France, if need be, because he was, you know, the first Prince of Blood, you know, he was linked through blood to the monarchy, linked through blood to, you know, the French throne. And so, he did eventually see himself becoming, you know, the new king. Now, he was linked to Saint-Georges, sort of a friendship. I wouldn’t say they were the best of friends, I think, as I said, just loyalty and the fact they’re at the same age and that, you know, Saint-Georges, you know, had been around the family for a while, they were friends.
It’s also true that in England, the Prince of Wales, George, or maybe, Prinny, as they called him, you know, he was also in line to become the king of England because his father had a, sort of, mental illness that made it difficult for him to be an efficient ruler. So, in 1788, you know, you have both men who are thinking, “Okay, we are going to be the future kings in all of our countries. We should form this alliance. We should start, you know, maybe solidifying our bond as we head into bigger things.” And there you have Saint-Georges in the middle, right? And if it’s true that Philippe Égalité knew that the Prince of Wales loved boxing, loved fencing. So, I think he used Saint-Georges as a way of maybe solidifying that deal, you know, maybe flexing as far by saying, “At my disposal, in my entourage, I have the greatest fencer of Europe and I will send him to England. He will have an exhibition there. I know that you love fencing so, you know, I do you a favour and eventually you’ll do one for me,” you know? So, it’s a sort of bargaining chip, I think, you know?
But for Saint-Georges, he was not a simpleton. He knew that if he went to England and he fenced for the prince, he would be paid, he would receive lavish gifts (which he did receive), but also he would earn for himself a new audience, you know? He’d not only have audiences in France but also now in England, a country that was much more progressive in terms of tolerance than France was. So, you know, he went, sure, on the bidding of Philippe Égalité, but also for his own interest. I’m pretty sure he went knowing that “I will come back with, you know, maybe enough in terms of money and maybe potential money and maybe income from my new audience if I go to England.” And so, I think that’s a part of what happened there.
Ann: I just wanted to mention too, to the listeners because I have done an episode before about the Chevalière d’Éon and that is, there was this big exhibition match and there’s a painting of it and Saint-Georges was fencing against the Chevalière d’Éon and I’ve seen that painting a hundred times and I just didn’t realize that that was the context of it and I didn’t realize that Saint-Georges is the opponent in that painting.
Julian: Yeah. And what a fascinating figure, the Chevalière d’Éon. [laughs] I mean, you know, I would love to listen to your podcast on that because that’s another— You know, just looking at the Saint-Georges’s entourage of people who may, who animated his life, you know, so eclectic, so, I don’t know, intriguing in their own right. And this person, this Chevalière, you know, was just one of them who just is so… I don’t know, interesting as a figure.
But yeah, there’s Saint-Georges, you know, fencing at this exhibition match with, you know, his new audience looking at him. And, you know, to what extent did he throw the match? To what extent did he actually allow himself to be, I don’t know, the best fencer in the moment? You know, or was it staged? There’s so much to unearth.
Ann: Yeah. So, I mean, again, I was just reading through this biography that I read. It’s just, “What’s going to happen next?” Like, everything is just… Just one adventure after another.
Julian: As you said, reading through… You know, I was recently looking through some archives, some British newspaper archives, and so, Saint-Georges in 1788, you know, is in England, 1788, 1789, you know, and then eventually, I find out that he opened this arts club, I think maybe a sporting exhibition club in England, where he was supposed to be the main, I don’t know, the main attraction. And of course, the journalists are wondering who paid for this? Who are the wealthy patrons who will go? So, he was just always, you know, trying to reinvent himself, trying to, you know, maybe, opening himself up to new experiences. So, I want to do more work on this and figure out where this club existed and who, I mean, what happened in this club? Who was there? Was he boxing? Was he fencing? Was it gambling? I don’t know. But it’s just interesting.
Ann: And that also just describing that is just one more thing he was doing. I often think that it’s a very modern thing for people to have, you know, a job and a job on the side and another job. But when you think about celebrities, it’s like someone is an actor, but then they also have a tequila line, and they also do skin care. [Julian laughs] But he was doing that! Like, it feels very contemporary to me that he was just finding whatever ways to make money he could, based on the fact that he was this celebrity.
Julian: A celebrity, exactly. Exactly. I think you’re completely right.
Ann: But then again, he’s excelling in so many ways. But my next question is about his romantic relationships. But again, it comes back to his race, which is that he was not able to marry. He could not marry a woman of his choice, he could not marry a white woman, and if he was going to marry a Black woman, he would probably lose his prestige and his status. He was known to have, I think everybody in his entourage, [Julian laughs] they all had many romantic entanglements, this was a libertine group of people. But then specifically, so he had a relationship, allegedly, with a woman, Marie-Josephine de Montalembert, and that led to some drama. Can you talk about what happened with that?
Julian: So, you’re completely right. You know, in his entourage, he had many people, including many women, you know, and because he was a person in the theatre, you know, he was linked to different patronesses of the arts, people who had their own private theatres. Two of these women that happened to be Madame de Montesson, who was one of the leading patronesses of the arts, she had the leading private theatre. And she happened to, on top of that, be able to secure Saint-Georges as one of the directors. So, she was winning in every sense of the way. Another person, another woman in this entourage was Madame de Montalembert, who was younger than Madame de Montesson, who was not as experienced, and whose theatre wasn’t really thriving. So, she went to Madame de Montesson to ask for help, to say, “Could you allow me to, willing to lend me” pretty much, “Saint-Georges so that he can help my theatre and, you know, maybe get some bodies into the chairs.” And surprisingly, this was allowed, this happened. I think, again, that Saint-Georges did this because he also had interest in working with Madame de Montalembert, I think so.
So, you know, we have these two people who are working together to, you know, create this thriving theatre, and the rumours have it, you know, the columnist, different gossip columns and everything picked up on maybe a sort of fondness between the two. They were thinking it was more than just friendship, that there was actually an actual affair going on, and this led to, they’re saying as well, the birth of a child, which was extremely, extremely controversial because, you know, first of all, it’s a child, another body that’s there, that has to be explained, and most likely to be a person, the child, would maybe bear resemblance to the father in some way, saying that, okay, you know, the colour of the skin, perhaps, you know? It would be obvious who the father was. And so, even if these were only rumours, the Général Montalembert would have been, you know, completely upset, completely thrown off by, you know, rumours about his wife having an affair with Europe’s greatest fencer, this huge celebrity that everyone was talking about, the famous Saint-Georges. You know, to be rumoured about having a relationship with, you know, his wife, it would have been too much, right?
So, as the story goes, this général, he saw to it that the son, this child was not cared for and the child died and was disposed of and supposedly in order to maybe seal the deal, to completely maybe save his honour, he arranged for six men to assassinate Saint— Well, to attempt an assassination on Saint-Georges. This, you know, was not successful; Saint-Georges managed to defend himself. You know, guns were involved, shots were fired, but he was not fatally injured. Just maybe, you know, scratched up and whatnot, but he survived. So, according to the stories, according to what’s written, allegedly, this Général de Montalembert was the one who actually orchestrated that attack.
Ann: Well, I’m just thinking everything we know. Well, you mentioned guns were involved too, but I was thinking, well, if they came with swords, like, of course, he’s going to defeat them because he’s… [chuckles]
Julian: Right, right, this great fencer. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah. But I just feel like they came to attack him, it’s like going after a superhero or something. Like, I’m glad that he escaped, but also, of course, he did. He’s so athletic, so clever. And then, I mean, we’re getting closer and closer. So, the French Revolution occurs.
Julian: Right, right, right. That little thing happened. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah. Just talking about things that sort of altered the trajectory of his life. So, everybody— He had been in, you know, he was spending time playing music with Marie Antoinette and staying with all these aristocrats who are now under threat. And so, what was his point of view about the French Revolution? How did he become involved?
Julian: Yeah, you know, as you said, I don’t think he had a choice, to be honest, because his life thus far, you know, it was really heavily influenced by the court, even his name, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, you know, this idea of him being so close to the nobility. You know, and then you have a time when the nobility is enemy number one, you know, this hatred and this idea that all of the 900 years of servitude, you know, is now linked to the nobility and they’re trying to be, I don’t know, they’re being killed, exterminated. Then Saint-Georges had no other choice but to, you know, distance himself from the court, as much as possible, as he could. He wanted to be seen as a patriot, you know, someone who supported the Revolution, someone who was not a royalist supporting the monarchy, you know, even though his track record kind of made it difficult for him to do so.
But there’s a pamphlet that we have that’s been attributed to him and some of my work now is to, you know, try to prove that this is actually a pamphlet written by Saint-Georges. But in this pamphlet, you know, it’s this idea that there are true citizens out there, there are true patriots. There are those who are fighting for the good of the nation, but there are two other factions. There are those who are the royalists, the monarchy. And then you have a third slippery faction, those people who are there who are working only for self-aggrandizement, they’re just there to feed their ego, to see how much they can gain from causing anarchy, you know? And one person called out is Robespierre, who was eventually the leader, the instigator of the French Terror, which is, you know, this very violent, bloody, gory period of the French Revolution where, you know, as the story goes, there was, like, just human blood just washing the streets of Paris. And, you know, in that period of time, even if you were suspected of having an idea that went counter to the leading ideas of the time, then you were considered a traitor and you would be imprisoned and decapitated.
So, it’s true that Saint-Georges was imprisoned. We don’t know why, it’s not really clear as to why, but I mean, there are many reasons. It could have been his connection to the court, his connection to the Prince of Wales, his connection to, you know, Philippe Égalité, his involvement in the National Guard, that people were saying it was not as invested in, you know, the cause of the Revolution but more so interested in his music performances. So, he was put in prison, you know, and it must have been a very, I don’t know, frightful time for him because, for any reason, he could have been decapitated, he could have been killed, but luckily that didn’t happen. But I do think in terms of the Revolution, he wanted to be seen as someone on the right side. Now, we don’t know his true intentions, but I’m pretty sure he would have wanted to, you know, secure his life in many ways, either to learn the old patrons that he had before, you know, in those privileged circles, but also to keep his neck on his body so he was maybe torn. But in the pamphlet, it is truly written by him, he wants to be seen as citizen Saint-Georges, not Chevalier de Saint-Georges, but a citizen who’s a true patriot, you know?
Ann: So, he winds up in a town called Lille, and this is where his next pivot is to become an army leader. [laughs] So, the Légion de Saint-Georges.
Julian: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so in Lille, in the north of France now, he’s not in Paris anymore, in the north of France, and this is his new home. In newspaper clippings, we see that they, you know, the people of Lille love that he was there, and he loved, you know, being in Lille as well. He did exhibition matches there and eventually, there’s a call, a national call, to defend the north of France from, you know, intrusion from Austrian, other countries, other, let’s say, monarchies that were trying to affect the French Revolution. And so, Saint-Georges was one of the first people to sign up to become a part of the National Guard.
And then a couple years later, there was a call to have free men of colour join and create this regiment of soldiers to continue defending the border. And Saint-Georges was once again, you know, just like with the Paris Opera, it was a no-brainer that he would be the director of this new légion, the Légion of Saint-Georges, which he accepted, and I think, you know, the first army of men of colour of the time.
As the story goes, he was not the best leader. I’m not sure if it’s to be believed, because once again, you take everything with a grain of salt when it comes to the criticism of him, and praise as well. But apparently, he didn’t manage funds really well, so mismanagement of funds was an issue, and that he didn’t seem interested in the work. He was mostly interested in bringing glory to himself, that he’s in this position to, you know, gain an audience again because he’s a performer, right? So, if he’s a performer, for him to survive, he needs an audience. And so, he’s doing this just to be in the limelight again, and he’s eventually gone off to Belgium to the concert, and he’s left us without any direct leadership. You know, so he was eventually seen, and this might have led to him being imprisoned but, you know, his true interests lied in, you know, bringing glory to himself and his fame and his celebrity, as opposed to being a true citizen to protect the French border.
So, I’m not sure where I fall on that. I think it was a very difficult position to hold, and a very difficult time to be a person in the French Revolution. It changed everything, you know?
Ann: It’s impressive to me that he made so many shifts throughout his life. Like, “Okay, now I’m going to do this. Oh, now the world is doing this? Now we’re going to do this.” Like, even if he didn’t, he wasn’t the greatest, you know, army general, he still survived! So… [chuckles] he got to live another day, which is at this point, I mean, during the French Revolution, kind of the best anyone could ask for.
Julian: Exactly. I can’t imagine living in that time.
Ann: Oh my gosh, you just never know what’s… Who do you side with? Because tomorrow, maybe that’s going to be the next enemy. Yeah.
So, this is the final chapter of his life, I guess, is the army stuff. But as you mentioned, he went to Belgium to do a concert. Like, he was still doing, I think he assembled an orchestra in Lille, sort of similar to the Concert des Amateurs.
Julian: I do think he was involved in music again. He couldn’t fully separate himself from, you know, his passion, his music, his audience, you know? And there was demand for it, there was still an interest in his musical genius, his musical talent. And so, of course, it made sense that, you know, towards the end of his life, which is sad to say, because it’s coming in 1799, that he did eventually find his violin again. It’s not that he abandoned his music completely to, you know, join the National Guard or to, you know, fight the cause of the Patriots. His music was always there with him. Yeah.
Ann: And I mean, yes, so we’re getting close to 1799. And that is when he, he had an illness and he passed away. I mean, what I wanted to talk to you as well about is his legacy afterwards.
Julian: Right. You know, in 1799, he dies, and a lot is happening in that year. You know, his death is one thing, but it’s also, you know, as historians will say, the end of the French Revolution, because it’s sort of the start of, you know, Napoleon and that era that leads us to the First Empire and all that, you know? So, he has a lot to deal with, a lot to upstage his death. But still, we see in the archives that, you know, there’s this outpouring of, you know, sadness, not just in France, but in Europe, you know, people are writing about his greatness and one author, an anonymous person, but still printed in the Paris journals, is upset about the way in which France has commemorated the passing of this man, that we should be ashamed of how we treated him. That, you know, we look back at this time and just be really embarrassed by how we treated him. And I do think, you know, those words are actually true. I mean, I do think what happened in the, it wasn’t until maybe 2002 that we have some sort of, you know, recognition in Paris of his legacy when you have the creation of this, the renaming of a street. It’s a tiny street in Paris, you can maybe do the length of it in, I don’t know, a minute or so. But, like, two centuries, you know, between his death and 2002, what happened? You know, what happened to his legacy?
This leads me to just ask the question, what was his true legacy right after his death? I mean, were people really interested in his talent or were they interested in his, I don’t know, his ability to be exploited for the reason of fiction? Like, you know, we could make up stories about where he came from, make up stories about his endowment, make up stories about his sexual appetite, make up stories about the colour of his skin and what that means about his intellect, what it means about, I don’t know, his origin, you know? I just wonder if… Because in the 19th century, of course, there were plays written about him, there were novels written eventually; people were making money by rendering him in a fictionalized way, and I’m wondering if a lot of the damage on his legacy, I do think is just based on the original impetus in 18th century that really drew people to him. Was it truly an understanding of him as a French citizen who was as talented as other French musicians? Or was there something else in terms of maybe exoticism that was holding him in the limelight? And so, that’s something I’m still working on.
But it’s true that in the 21st century, we had the creation of the term “Black Mozart,” you know? We had Black Don Juan before, I guess in the 19th century, you know, but Black Mozart, which was used as a way to maybe draw attention to him and it’s still being used today, by the way. Mozart, you know, his legacy is intact, he’s a famous Austrian composer, everyone knows about Mozart. And even people who haven’t, don’t really understand or don’t care for classical music, you play, you know, the opening bars of the March of Figaro, like, “Oh yeah! I know that. It’s Mozart.” So, to call him Black Mozart is to say, okay, if you love Mozart, you know anything about this man, can you imagine a person in the 18th century who could have been considered the Black Mozart? And so, it’s a way to bring, you know, a lot of interest, a lot of curiosity to the exploration or discovery of Saint-Georges.
\ And I think, you know, it had its moment, it did what it was intended to do, it did garner some attention in the 21st century for Saint-Georges, and has led now to, I do think, what is a true reimagining and also just a resurgence of Saint-Georges’s work in the 21st century. Operas are being staged, orchestras are programming his music, there are festivals that happen every year in Guadeloupe and different parts of North America, different parts of Europe. So, I would say that he’s being restored to full glory and I do think this time, I don’t think it’s about the fiction, I don’t think it’s about whether or not we can say this was a Black Mozart, or whether not this was a Black Don Juan. It’s like, no, this is just truly, you know, ingenious music and people are appreciating it on that level, which I think is great.
Ann: I do just want to point out to the listeners, like, how I came across you as a potential guest for the podcast was you wrote this academic paper about the Black Mozart concept. One of the points that I thought was very strong, I mean, it was a great article and I invited you on the podcast obviously so I appreciate it a lot, but one of the things I remember you said in that was he was more famous than Mozart in his life.
Julian: Sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, that’s why I really had, I don’t know, took umbrage with the term Black Mozart, because it made us feel as if he was the one imitating or trying to be like Mozart, you know? It was the opposite, you know? Mozart’s dad told young Mozart, who was struggling to get his career off the ground, “When you go to France, make sure you seek out this orchestra and Saint-Georges because, you know, this guy’s all the rage in France. And if you want to start your career and become more prominent as a composer, as a performer, try to get a commission from Saint-Georges.” Because, as I said before, if Saint-Georges is on your program, if he’s anywhere in your entourage, you have interest, you have eyes, you have money, you have people coming in. So, it makes sense that, you know, Leopold Mozart would have told his son Wolfgang, yeah, “If you’re in France, you go to this guy.”
So, not many people would have known that, you know, just thinking about the term Black Mozart, it makes it seem as if, well, Mozart was all the rage and, you know, there’s someone who tried to be like him, who happened to be Black, [laughs] which is really striking for me and upsetting, actually.
Ann: No, exactly. And yeah, your essay makes this point very strongly. [Julian laughs] But I just wanted, everybody to know that Saint-Georges was there first.
Julian: Yeah, exactly.
Ann: And he was more successful at that time. So, I had, I emailed you these, kind of, categories that I usually… [Julian laughs] It’s kind of a fun way to end the episodes, which, we’ll see how Saint-Georges does in these various categories. I’m very interested to hear what you’re going to say for each of them. But the first category is the, the Scandalousness; how scandalous was he seen by society at the time? And I’m curious, because he was widely, in many ways, because he was making money for so many people, he was widely accepted, he was invited to all of these parties.
Julian: Yeah. You know, listen, I think he was a very scandalous person, I mean, in the way he discarded tradition. Like, you know, when you think of the French Academy, when you think of just music theories and different treaties of harmony and he shows up and says, “You know what? I’m going to do it this way.” [laughs] And, you know, luckily, it worked, meaning people were, I guess, hungry for something new, hungry for something that they hadn’t seen before, right? And it kind of worked, I guess, that he was so peculiar, with the colour of his skin, to his origins, to the way, you know, it well worked that this person would be the one to warp French traditions, right? I think luck was on his side that, you know, it kind of pleased the taste of the concertgoers. But, you know, also in athletics and fencing and, you know, the way he just, like, did his own thing, I’ll give him a solid 7 for being a scandalous person.
Ann: Absolutely. I agree. And I think we’ve said so many things about him. I just was like, “Oh, that’s right! He did do these like new and interesting ways.” Didn’t you say some of his music required people to hold a violin in a different way? Like, that’s…
Julian: Yeah, you know, these tremendous jumps, and you know, different, let’s say, tonalities and just, you had to, as a human, first of all, say, “Well, can I, can my body do that? Can my fingers do that?” You know? And if you wanted to have a job, you wanted to be a part of his entourage, you want to be in his shine, of course, you’d find a way to play his music, you know? So, he pushed human potential as well which I think is, you know, tremendously interesting.
Ann: Yeah. And that’s part of where I just feel like he feels like such a contemporary-type figure. So many people in his era were just kind of doing what was expected and he was just, he was just like, “That’s not for me. I’m just going to…”
Julian: [laughs] “I’m doing my own thing and, you know, it works.”
Ann: Yeah, exactly. He definitely set himself apart in that way, as well as how he was already set apart to a lot of people because of the colour of his skin.
So, the next category is the Schemieness, how much— And I think this is going to be a very high number, I think he… He was always could find an angle, he knew he had the celebrity, he knew people were going to bet on him, and he was able to leverage that to really elevate his success.
Julian: I agree completely. I mean, with everything you said. And, you know, that’s how he had to survive. As a performer, you know, you were working for… You live for the applause. Who said that? Who said that?
Ann: Lady Gaga.
Julian: There you go. Lady Gaga said, “You live for the applause.” You know, literally! He needed to secure, he had to understand the taste of the people who were going to concerts, he had to appease them at every moment for them to come back, for them to pay, for them to, you know, help him to make a living. And he moved from being, I don’t know, from fencing to violin to orchestral composition to opera composition, you know, to the National Guard, to boxing, all of that, you know? And it’s true that he did these things deliberately. I don’t think he was just pulled along by life and by happenstance, you know?
For the French opera, it’s true that in 17… I think in 1768, just curiously, randomly, a poem appeared in the Mercure Galant, which is this, you know, journal that, you know, all the powerful people of France read. And there’s this poem written about Saint-Georges, and it says, you know, “He’s the genius of taste and talent, this great.” But then it ends by saying how wonderful, “Can you imagine if this talent, if he ever married music and words, he would be an Apollo.” Just randomly, that’s how this poem just comes on nowhere and says, he’s done so well in orchestral music. Can you imagine if he became, you know, an opera composer? And I believe that was strategically placed there to, you know, have the right eyes read it so that when Saint-Georges went up to become the director of the opera, it wouldn’t be a surprise.
So, it’s not just Saint-Georges on his own being pulled along. No, there are other investors, capitalists, as they call them, who are setting them up to, you know, use his celebrity to be entered to, I don’t know, be elected to high-powered positions for them to maybe benefit eventually from him. So, a lot of schemieness, I think, not just for him, but for all the people around him. So, I gave him a solid 10. I gave him full 10 for this, highest mark.
Ann: I agree. I think he always was thinking 10 steps ahead and knowing— And because of, like, how he needed to keep going, like, he was going contract to contract, he didn’t have… He just always had to find a way to make money and to keep going, and I think it’s admirable that he… Like you said, he wasn’t just sort of floating along as life happened to him; he was making things happen and that’s part of what’s so notable and important about his life.
So, the next one, I can guess what you’re going to say, but I want to hear your explanation, the Significance. [laughs]
Julian: [laughs] Yeah, here again, I gave him high marks. It’s really because of, curiously, it’s because of what we don’t know about him. I feel as if for scholars, you know, anyone, if there are gaps in our knowledge, it usually forces us to look harder and to try harder to fill those gaps in, you know? And so, here we have a person who we don’t really understand his unique profile as a historical figure, you know? A person, mixed race, with this talent who was able to, you know, enter these high positions of power; he’s a very peculiar case. And, you know, we need to, first of all, you know, figure out his profile. Like, as a historical figure, how do we understand his particular profile? What new connections can we make with existing knowledge? How can we create, I don’t know, new points of focus? How can we answer some questions? Maybe figure out, you know, how we can write his legacy equitably? All of that forces us to just go back to the archives and to, you know, look at this entire early modern period differently. All historians and all scholars of this period benefit from that, just from a focus on the Saint-Georges.
So, for that reason alone, I give him like a 9, you know? He just pulls us back into the century and forces us to answer questions that we didn’t think we were even going to ask, you know? So yeah, I think it is a lot for the academia as well. Yeah.
Ann: And then I don’t know how to discuss this next category, but when I started this podcast, we were only talking about women. And I can’t retroactively change the scale because then I have to redo everyone. [Julian laughs] So, the final category is Sexism. But I do think of the many things that I mean, I think racism was obviously the major challenge for him. But I do think sexism can be seen as part of this story and how… I give you this challenge. [both chuckle] How can we score this? What did you think about this?
Julian: You know, I think because of his position again in theatre… You know, he was in circles of men, privileged circles of men, but circles of women as well. So, he understood the life cycle of women, I do think he understood how sexism affected them. And, you know, if we look at this idea of women moving between three positions or three zones of protection… So, at home in the family, either the patriarch, their brother, their father, whatever; and then from there moving to the protection of the husband; and then from the husband, you know, depending on, you know, how the marriage goes, if the woman is widowed and doesn’t have inheritance or even if there is some sort of inheritance, the woman might then end up in the convent, you know? So, it’s only certain women who had a lot of, let’s say, endowment from the passing of their husband and they were able to maybe have some agency then, and that’s when their lives really took off, like, you know, they were a true sense of freedom.
But for Saint-Georges, he was with women who were mostly in the second category, under the protection of their husbands, where it was understood for these women that, you know, this marriage is not one of love, it’s one of convenience is one of, you know, status, it’s one where you’re expected almost, and it’s rumoured about, and maybe it’s real, it’s imagined, but you’re expected to have these different affairs, you know, clandestine maison, and you’re expected to survive, find a way to, you know, get some sort of happiness before, you know, your husband of who’s maybe 36 years older than you are [chuckles] passes off and you have some freedom.
So, there’s Saint-Georges in the middle of this, who is somehow caught up in these, you know, rumours about the goings on in the private chambers. He was linked to Marie Antoinette, Marie Antoinette, of course, you know, a lot of pornographic literature came out about her, I mean, the scandals, and I’m pretty sure he was caught up in this too. It was rumoured about what he might have been doing with Marie Antoinette, with other women, and of course, rumours about his sexuality, sexual appetite, what he liked, and how large, how vigorous, all of that. So, I do believe indirectly, he would have been, you know, affected by this discrimination against women, women for their own sexuality as well, and their sexual freedom, you know? So, I think because of that, I do think indirectly he was touched by sexism. So, I put him at, like, at a 5.
But it could be more too, because, you know, the first opera he wrote was called Ernestine, and it was based on a famous novel by a writer, Madame Riccoboni, so a woman author of the time, bestseller. But the novel was about entering the psyche of a woman, you know, a young woman coming out into society, and just the grappling that she has to deal with, you know, honour, her own honour, and virtue, and pride, and trying to navigate the very difficult world of courts, and all that, and Saint-Georges chose that as his first opera. Sure, I mean, Marie Antoinette had a copy of the book in her possession, but why was he so keen on representing this literary figure on stage? Was it solely because of, you know, the popularity of the book? Was it because he actually, you know, knew all too well, and he somehow maybe identified with this idea of non-freedom, the identity of maybe restriction imposed upon oneself by the patriarchy, you know? So, yeah, I put him at a 5 but he could be even higher. 5 to 7, I believe, with this category.
Ann: So, when I add all those scores up, his total score is a 31, which… [both laugh] I’ll just let you know, just about other people who have done another podcast who have a similar score. Do you know Sally Hemmings, the American, Thomas Jefferson’s enslaved mistress?
Julian: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Ann: Yes, she has a 32.
Julian: Oh really? [laughs] Okay. Good, good, good.
Ann: So, in terms of, you know, like Black history, those two are in the same neighbourhood. Nefertiti, the Egyptian queen, she has a 31.5.
Julian: Wait a minute, okay!
Ann: So, he’s in some very good company here.
Julian: Yeah, I would say! Wonderful. That’s good to know. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah, I think in this scale, on this podcast, anyone who gets a 30 or above is, like, quite notable because it’s rare for somebody to score highly in all of the categories. But I think he was such an exceptional person that he kind of has all these different qualities. Like, to have the significance and the scandal and the schemieness, it’s rare. But he really had all of those things.
Julian: Yeah. And you know, I think we’re just scratching the surface. I think there’s so much more to discover. So, we’ll keep going.
Ann: Exactly! I think people like you who are, you know, looking in archives and finding facts, and like you said, that pamphlet, I’m excited to see what you figure out with that.
Julian: Yeah, thank you. Wish me luck! [laughs]
Ann: Because I think there is so much more to know, and it just takes people like you who are doing the work and digging around.
Julian: Thank you. I, I’m wishing for luck and, you know, patience and magic almost, because, you know, sometimes those archives are very daunting. So, yeah.
Ann: Do you have any, I mean I’ll just ask you if you have any final thoughts you wanted to say just about Saint-Georges, in general?
Julian: I would say just a huge thank you to you and for your work, you know, because I think we’re all pulling together in the same direction, just trying to really honour the legacy of this man and to not, you know, really engage with any sort of fiction about his life. You know, to really take the time to do good work and to equitably present him to, you know, today’s world as a leading historical figure who was, you know, a pioneer in so many different ways. So, thank you for this podcast and thank you to your audience as well for engaging with this work. It would be great to see how far we can go, you know?
Ann: Well, I mean, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a topic… I find him such a fascinating figure but I didn’t feel equipped to explain the story thoroughly myself and when I came across your work, I thought, “Oh! I hope I can get this man on the podcast,” because I feel like you’re the person to really get people excited about this and I think I’m right.
Julian: I hope so. Thank you so much for your kindness. Thank you so much, Ann.
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So, thank you again to Julian Ledford for joining us today for this very special episode. I think this story is so important to know. I think Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier of Saint-Georges is such a significant figure. And actually, after the interview, I came across a quote from this recent GQ interview with Beyoncé, who was talking about why she sampled some music by the Chevalier of Saint-Georges in her recent album, Cowboy Carter. I’m going to read this quote from Beyoncé. So, she said:
This is why it was so important for me to sample the composer, Joseph Bologne, known as Chevalier de Saint-Georges in the song, “Daughter” on Cowboy Carter. Violin Concerto in D major Op.3 No.1 No.2 Adagio was created in the 1700s. This is a testament to Chevalier’s vision. I hope it inspires artists as well as fans to dig deeper and learn more about the Black musical innovators who came before us. Some of the most talented artists never achieve the mainstream praise they deserve, especially when they defy the norm.
And I thought this was just… It just seemed so perfect that I came across this quote just after I had spoken with Julian because it’s so much of what he was saying about the importance of the Chevalier, but also his increased prominence and how more people are hearing about him. So, I actually shared that quote with him after and he said, this is Julian, I’m quoting him now from an email. “I wanted to mention that I think Saint-Georges is on the way to becoming the most popular 18th-century French composer. Beyoncé may be a great catalyst in realizing that.”
So, I think it’s wonderful that the profile of Saint-Georges is becoming more broadly known, including in the recent film just called Chevalier in which Kelvin Harrison Jr. plays Saint-Georges. And I would recommend that film. I didn’t bring it up with Julian because I didn’t want to get into all that stuff in our discussion, but I do think that Kelvin Harrison Jr.’s charisma sells that whole entire movie. And once you know the story of the real Saint-Georges, you can see how the movie took those facts and spun it into this narrative. And it features a whole bunch of music by the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. We also talked about it on one of the episodes of Vulgarpiece Theatre, which is the Patreon-only podcast I do. So, you can watch the movie, then you can hear our review of it as well.
Anyway, what I want to let you know is that… So, we scored Saint-Georges on the Fredegund Memorial Scandaliciousness Scale. And if you want to see the full scale and who is on it and where everybody lands in these four categories, you can find that on my website, which is VulgarHistory.com, and there’s like a button there that says “Scores,” so you can kind of see where everybody goes, see where your fave has landed in this list as well. I also want to mention that I recently made an appearance on a podcast called Content and Capable, which is a podcast hosted by an Australian man named Sam and we had a really, really interesting conversation talking about the connections, like, why I started the Vulgar History podcast, the importance of learning about history, and how history relates to modern things, and how modern things are history. It’s a really interesting, in-depth conversation. I really would invite you to all listen to it. So, just look up Content and Capable podcast, wherever you get your podcasts from.
And also, since you’re here, I will let you know a few other things. So, I do have a Substack newsletter, which is where I— It’s free and that’s where I share my history writing. You know, I’m writing a book, and so I need to flex my writing skills and so, you can kind of know what my writing is like so when the book comes out, you’ll know what that’s like. Anyway, so every two weeks, I post an essay there. And if you subscribe, you subscribe to it with your email address, and then it just lands in your inbox every two weeks, a little essay by me about a scandalous woman or other person from history. Most recently, I wrote about Jeanne de la Motte, so timely for this Marie Antoinette season. You can find that at VulgarHistory.Substack.com.
You can also support the podcast on Patreon and I have news about this actually. So, you go to Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter, that’s where you go and you can become a free member. What that gets you is, basically, some of the things I post there go out to everybody, including the free members. One of those things is a new spin-off podcast, because I’m not busy enough, that is called Ann Is Writing A Book, and that is where… So, I am writing this book about Caroline of Brunswick, and there’s so many things I want to tell you about it, and the book doesn’t come out for ages. So, just so you can kind of join me on the journée of writing the book. So, everybody who joins the Patreon at every level, including free members can get these, kind of, casual, random episodes. I say random, because it’s not, like, every Tuesday, it’s just kind of like when I’m writing, and I want to talk to you about something. So, that’s an incentive for you to join the Patreon, even for free, to get the updates from me about my book that I’m writing.
Also, if you want to take it up a notch, if you join the Patreon for $1 or more a month, sort of like a subscription, I guess, you get early, ad-free access to all episodes of Vulgar History. Usually, it comes out on a Wednesday, for these people at the $1 month on Patreon, they get it on a Saturday. So, you get like a few days advance notice what the episodes are going to be. But also, people at this $1/month level, you get ad-free access to all previous episodes as well. So, if you want to, like, binge-listen to a bunch of Vulgar History without the ad break in the middle, that’s where you can do that.
And also, if you pledge $5 or more a month, you get even more! So, you get access to bonus episodes of things like Vulgarpiece Theatre, where I review costume dramas, not review, just kind of like, chat for two to three hours and record it with friends of the podcast, Allison Epstein and Lana Wood Johnson. Again, we have done an episode about Chevalier, the movie about Chevalier de Saint-Georges, which, it was so interesting to watch that movie and talk about it and then to do this research and so to kind of see some of the things in the movie that we weren’t sure about, turns out actually came from his actual life. And some things we weren’t sure about in the movie were just movie magic. And then also at that $5 a month level, you get access to The Aftershow, which is where sometimes I invite people who are guests on the show to just like kiki about other topics, and also So This Asshole, where I talk about men from history who were shitty. I do want to say that I am going to be talking about, this season, some other men from history who were maybe not shitty, here in the main feed. So, you know… What is a binary? Like, we’re a feminist women’s history comedy podcast, and we talk about various genders, mostly women, but sometimes other people.
Anyway, I also wanted to say too, all the stuff about the bonus episodes on Patreon, if you’re like, “That sounds great, but I don’t want to, like, log into a website to listen to podcasts,” you don’t have to. Because once you become a Patreon member, you can connect, you get a special feed that you can put into Spotify, or you can put into Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from. And so, the episodes will just show up in your regular feed, they just happen to maybe not have ads in them, if you’re at the $1 a month level, or if you’re at the free level, the Ann Is Writing A Book will just show up there. Anyway, it’s all really, super smooth and works great. Isn’t technology wonderful? If you join the Patreon, like, all the instructions are there for how you can get that set up. Also, people at the $5 or more a month, Patreon get to join the Vulgar History Salon, which is our Discord, which is just like a place where we chat and talk about things, like, we talk about what do our pets look like? Or we talk about, like, who’s your favourite history teacher? Like, why are you interested in history? Sharing memes, it’s a nice time.
Also, I could not wrap up this podcast without mentioning our brand partner, Common Era Jewelry, who just released a whole bunch of beautiful gemstone pieces, actually. So, Common Era Jewelry is a woman-owned small business that is creating beautiful heirloom pieces of jewellery, either in solid gold as well as a more affordable gold vermeil. And these pieces include some that feature the faces, the heads of various women from classical mythology, as well as from history. And so, this includes people who we’ve talked about on the podcast like Boudica, Cleopatra, Agrippina, Anne Boleyn showed up there, people we haven’t talked about on the podcast, but who are great women to wear in a necklace, like Olga of Kiev is there, Cassandra from mythology. Hatshepsut has a necklace. You can get 15% off your order from Common Era Jewelry, using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout, or going to CommonEra.com/Vulgar, or using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout. And again, there are some beautiful new pieces, I’m excited to see what Torie, the owner, is going to release next, but there are these beautiful new ones with gemstones as well.
You can also buy Vulgar History merchandise, including our Princess Diana outfit, fall season, varsity, crewneck sweatshirt, which says “Vulgar History”… Gosh, it’s a funny thing, what does it say? “Not taking history seriously since 2019,” because guess what? It’s coming up our five-year anniversary. So anyway, it’s a beautiful design by friend of the podcast, Karyn Moynihan, and other merchandise is available there as well, stickers, pins, lots of great things. So, you can get your Vulgar History merchandise. If you’re in the US, you go to VulgarHistory.com/Store, if you’re not in the US, you can go to VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com.
And if you want to get in touch with me, I love hearing from all of you always. You can get in touch with me if you go to VulgarHistory.com, there’s a little “Contact me” button there. If you go to Instagram, I am @VulgarHistoryPod, and you can send me a DM there as well. I love to see people who are travelling to places where we’ve talked about on the show and showing me things. Like, there was a listener who recently sent me a picture, they were in Philadelphia and saw the President’s House memorial to Ona Judge and it was so moving to see a video of Ona being remembered there, like we talked about in those episodes, her footprints leaving the house. So, if you go to one of these places that we’ve talked about on the show, please send me pictures. You can send those to me on Instagram @VulgarHistoryPod or go to my website VulgarHistory.com and send me a little email.
Next week, we are having a very special guest. I think you’re all going to be very excited to hear from a return guest, and we’re going to be talking about another person whose story combines what we talked about in part one with the American Revolution with what we’re getting into now in part two with the Versailles of it all. Marie Antoinette is going to make another appearance and I’m excited for y’all to hear next week’s episode. Until then, keep your pants on and your tits out.
Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com.
References:
The Chevalier de Saint-Georges: Virtuoso of the Sword and the Bow by Gabriel Banat
Le Chevalier de Saint-Georges, Man of Music and Gentleman-at-Arms: The Life and Times of an Eighteenth-Century Prodigy by Gabriel Banat
Joseph Boulogne, the Chevalier de Saint-George and the Problem With Black Mozart by Julian A. Ledford
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