Vulgar History Podcast
Jeanne Bécu, Comtesse du Barry AKA Madame du Barry, Part Two (with Amanda Matta)
October 2, 2024
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster and this is Season Seven, Part Two. So, this whole season, it’s slowly winding our way to talking about Marie Antoinette. To do that, we’re looking at the world around her and the people around her and kind of what was all going on. Last week, we started in on, I’m calling this section of the series, Meanwhile… Back in France, because the first part was kind of in other countries like America. And so, last time we started the saga of Jeanne Bécu AKA Madame du Barry. And we left things with a cliffhanger last week where she succeeded in doing the, whatever it was, like five backward curtsies in her diamond-encrusted gown and she officially was introduced to court and became officially the maîtresse en titre, the official mistress of King Louis XV. What’s going to happen next? I mean, based on the timeline, we’re going to meet Marie Antoinette, she’s going to be in this story, and the French Revolution is going to occur in the lifetime of this woman.
So, our special guest last week and this week is Amanda Matta and I’m so happy to have her here on the show because this is, like, you could tell, I’m guessing most people listening to this heard Part One already, like, this is her sweet spot. Amanda loves this story, she loves this time period and I love having guests on where they get to talk about their favourite thing. So, you know, we’re going to get right into it, we’re going to finish up this second of Madame du Barry and then I’ll have some more information and news for you afterwards.
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Ann: And so, she is put into this role that, like, is inherently political but she doesn’t care about that side of things. I think she’s just happy to get what she saw Francesca had when she was young. It’s just, like, her rooms, she decorates them. I think I read it was in the Joan Haslip biography that she chose, like, the best, most exquisite, you know, furniture, paintings, everything. She had the best taste and her apartments were gorgeous, like her style and her taste was just perfect. And she’s just living exactly the life she wanted, like, just being this fancy person, bathing in roses, like, she’s killing it. That’s all she ever wanted.
Amanda: She’s basically getting princess perks without, like, you know, having to be a princess and actually represent the monarchy. They’re mistress perks, I guess. But yeah, she becomes this, like, patroness of the arts, whether it’s decorative arts or the fine arts, literature, philosophers. Madame de Pompadour before her had kind of patronized Voltaire. So, like, that’s the realm we’re operating in here. She would entertain, even at her morning levée ceremony, her waking up ceremony, and when she was sitting down to have her makeup and her hair done, she would entertain; tradesmen would come in artists and artisans would come in and present her with samples of whatever they produced, jewellery, porcelain, fabric, dress designs. And she, I can imagine just sitting there, you know, waving her hand, giving cues, yes or no.
But she’s not so much interested in the politics, either the court intrigue side of things or the, like, national level politics, which other mistresses have been interested in in the past. Mostly, again, Madame de Pompadour and all those official mistresses that have come before her, they have had some hand in influencing foreign policy or at some sort of national interest level, what the king is going to be deciding. And du Barry, not so much into the politics.
Ann: There is a painting of her doing her morning toilette routine, there’s just like her sitting there and her young servant, who we will talk about, bringing her her morning hot chocolate, and she’s just looking glamourous and beautiful. So yeah, she was just… People were like, “Oh my gosh, what’s this going to mean politically?” And it’s like, guess what? Nothing, because she just wants to like, have a nice time.
Amanda: [chuckles] And help the king have a good time.
Ann: Yes! Yeah. And that’s all that he wanted of her. But people, even though she’d been introduced at court, she was not welcomed by everybody, including by the king’s daughters, his unmarried daughters, the “Mesdames.”
Amanda: Mesdames tantes, yeah.
Ann: Who were just bitches.
Amanda: Yeah, salty bitches, who were, again, fabulously portrayed in the Sophia Coppola movie. I think you get all you need to know about them from that movie. Yeah, they’re very, very rigid, and they’re, like, upholding court etiquette. Again, they see her as this interloper, and they kind of pass that view down to Marie Antoinette when she enters Versailles as the 14-year-old Dauphine of France.
Ann: Well, she shows up so she’s… Yeah again, she’s, like, a young teenager. She shows up there. Like, Marie Antoinette also, I would say, not entirely prepared for Versailles either.
Amanda: No.
Ann: But yeah, the Mesdames sort of, like, take her under their wing and they’re like, “Here’s what Versailles like, we’re going to protect you. But also, we all hate Madame du Barry so you have to also hate her as well.” And this becomes a huge thing.
Amanda: Oh, it’s legendary. The feud that becomes, like, part of du Barry and Marie Antoinette’s story, absolutely legendary. She gets ostracized by some courtiers, others are courting her going to her rooms to ask for favours. But yeah, the biggest challenge that she faces, I think, is Marie Antoinette coming in and instantly deciding, like, “This is my enemy, and I’m 14 years old, and I’m the daughter of the Austrian Empress and, like, fuck everybody.” [laughs] Which is not a side of Marie Antoinette you often get to hear about. But she was, I think, pretty snobby when it came to du Barry.
Ann: Yeah. Well, there’s the whole thing, actually, I think first when she first saw Madame du Barry, like, there was the like, welcome Marie Antoinette dinner or whatever. And there’s a whole thing about like, will Madame du Barry attend? And she did. And then Marie Antoinette, not knowing who she was yet, was just like, “Oh my god, who is that?”
Amanda: “Who is that?”
Ann: “Most gorgeous person I’ve ever, who is that beautiful person?” Like, the angels are singing and they’re like, “Uhh, she keeps the king happy,” I think she was called.
Amanda: “She’s here to bring pleasure to the king,” yeah.
Ann: Yes, yes, exactly. So, then Marie Antoinette is just like, “Oh my gosh,” and then she just doesn’t talk to her. That’s the thing, she never… And this becomes a political issue because Marie Antoinette is there because of this alliance with Austria. So, it’s becoming a huge thing.
Amanda: Absolutely. Marie Antoinette comes in, because of her rank from birth as a daughter of the Empress of Austria, she is here to cement this alliance, which, by the way, the Austrian alliance (I’m sure you’ll cover this in the Marie proper episode) very unpopular; people did not like this alliance. Marie Antoinette thinks she should be number one in everyone’s eyes. She should be the first lady at court, she should be leading society. And she comes in and the reality is this woman from the streets of Paris is already occupying that role, and as much as everybody despised du Barry, you cannot argue that she was the chosen one to lead society at Versailles. She’s hosting these parties, which the king does have to demand that people attend so that they don’t completely snub du Barry.
But at this point, when Marie Antoinette comes in, she’s pretty well cemented as the arbiter of taste at Versailles and Marie Antoinette decides that she’s going to be du Barry’s enemy. She wants to be number one in King Louis’ heart, which is an interesting dynamic, I think, because du Barry is so young as well. She’s in her twenties, Marie Antoinette is 14, 15. And du Barry, I think a lot of her appeal is her youthfulness. So, here’s this woman, girl, 10 years younger coming in and kind of representing the new wave at court, the next generation. So, there’s this interesting, like, power dynamic just between court factions that instantly comes into play with Marie Antoinette and du Barry.
Ann: And so, it escalates. Like, her mother to Marie Antoinette, like her mother is being like, “You need to say hi to this woman,” and Marie Antoinette is like, “No, I never will!” Then eventually…
Amanda: It’s almost an international incident, honestly.
Ann: Yeah, Louis and the Austrian ambassador had to meet and they made an agreement that Marie Antoinette will say hi to Madame du Barry. [laughs]
Amanda: I can imagine the workshopping that went on, like, “Okay, what’s she going to say? Where are they going to be? When’s this going to happen?” And the courtiers are just eating their popcorn and watching this, because if there’s anything that society loves, it’s to watch two royal-adjacent women, like, fighting. [chuckles] We love that.
So yeah, there’s this decided meeting that happens between Marie Antoinette and du Barry in the middle of court at Versailles on just kind of, like, a random morning. Marie Antoinette goes up to her and obviously du Barry, because she’s a mistress and Marie Antoinette is the dauphine, the heir’s wife, du Barry cannot talk to her first, it has to come from Marie Antoinette. And Marie Antoinette goes up to her and she decides to say, “There are a lot of people at Versailles today.” And it worked, that’s all it took. [laughs] The king and…
Ann: And they never spoke again.
Amanda: Ever. The king and the mistress were “gushingly grateful” for this. Like, it’s not even a sign of approval, it’s just the bare minimum to, like, prove or to demonstrate that there’s no real rivalry happening here so that we don’t have to go to war with Austria. [laughs]
Ann: It’s bananas. It’s amazing. And, you know, the Mesdames, I’m sure we’re so mad about it.
Amanda: Oh my god, seething. Again, if you haven’t watched the Sofia Coppola movie, a great scene. It plays out fabulously and you can really feel the tension [giggles] riding on this moment.
Ann: I do want to mention, so just in this essay I’m looking at, it mentions that at one point du Barry tried to win over Marie Antoinette with an offer of some very expensive earrings and Marie Antoinette did not reply.
But this reminds me that I want to say that Madame du Barry, so she loved luxurious, beautiful things. She loved jewels. The whole Affair of the Diamond Necklace was— Those guys who made that ugly necklace, that was for her, like, because she was so known to like diamonds.
Amanda: She loved diamonds. Louis would shower her with jewels, that was the one thing she collected. And it was interesting, I was reading Madame de Pompadour before du Barry, she’s her predecessor, she would also get these gifts, the king would shower her with diamonds, but sometimes she would sell them or trade them and she would provide dowries for young women in her circle. At one point, she sold some of her diamonds to, like, fund a hospital. When she passed away, she bequeathed her entire collection of jewels back to the kingdom so that it could fund, I think it was a war. [laughs] Du Barry, not into being generous with her jewels; she is hoarding them, she loves them so much.
Ann: To. Her. Detriment! But we’ll get to that.
Amanda: Yeah, we’ll get to that, that’s foreshadowing. But yeah, she, but also is a trendsetter. Despite the way that people look down on her for loving jewellery, she is actually influencing, like, trends. Elizabeth Herman writes, it’s very interesting, she writes that in the 18th century, the beginning of the century, court women were only wearing, like, one type of jewel at a time. They would either wear pearls or diamonds or emeralds or rubies. They wouldn’t mix gemstones in pieces of jewellery. Du Barry in her patronizing of the arts, she’s encouraging jewellers to get a little experimental and to mix gemstones, and mix metals, and “Yeah, put a ruby next to a sapphire. Let’s see what that looks like.”
So, she loves jewellery, she is very into it, it’s her hobby and she is influencing taste at court. But because she is set up as the rival to Marie Antoinette, there is kind of this dichotomy of, you know, some people will see that as a good thing, some people will see that as a bad thing. Yeah, the Diamond Necklace Affair is a really good indicator of this because that necklace, it’s so gaudy, but you know, du Barry would have, like, very proudly worn that piece of… [chuckles] that monstrosity. But unfortunately, Louis dies before he can actually complete the purchase for her. But yeah, that’s who it was originally commissioned for.
Ann: When that part of the story slid into place for me, because I know the Diamond Necklace Affair, that was one of the first episodes I ever did. I was just like, “Ohhhhh!” So, I’m like, “Oh, this is the woman who would have liked that. Got it. Got it. That is her style.
Amanda: And nobody else wants this piece of jewellery because it’s so gaudy. Somebody described it comparing it to an animal halter because it would have, like, hung around your neck like a yoke. So, it’s huge. And du Barry is, I think, the only person who would have, like, enjoyed that piece of jewellery. [laughs]
Ann: Absolutely. But yeah, so I mean, this is like Louis does die. So, she’s in this role of mistress for basically five years, and then he gets smallpox.
Amanda: Yes, he was sick a few times while they were together, I guess you could say. And he’s always recovered from it before, and it’s never really put a damper on his sexual appetites. There’s one story of her going to his bedside while he’s sick. And he’s, like, using his disfigured hand to grope her breasts because it’s making him feel alive. But in, I think it’s 1774, he gets terminally ill with smallpox, which is a big bummer for du Barry.
Ann: There is one moment in the Joan Haslip biography where it says, like, there’s two— It’s not entirely a flattering biography. But Joan Haslip says, like, there are two times where Madame Du Barry was admirable and brave And one of those times was when she went to see him when he had smallpox and she held his hand, knowing that that would maybe give her smallpox too.
Amanda: Yeah. She’s not very popular in the country at this time. People know that she loves jewellery. She’s starting to actually be blamed for, like, everything wrong with the monarchy because, in the background, the Revolution is in the very early stages. So, there is kind of this other side to du Barry, aside from the frivolous, like, beautiful woman, she does kind of, sometimes her human nature peeks through and she does go to Louis XV’s bedside and nurse him through this illness until she is sent away.
Also, I read that the reason he caught smallpox here, I’m horrified at this, it was because he loved to examine dead bodies and had, like, went to visit the coffin of a girl who I guess had had smallpox and was about to be buried.
Ann: But he didn’t know that she had had smallpox. He was like, “I want to see this dead body!” And they’re all like, “Oh, we can’t tell him she died of smallpox because the king is so afraid of smallpox.”
Amanda: So, they just let him! Yeah, crazy. Cuckoo bananas. So, the king gets smallpox and he is on his deathbed. And in the past, when he’s been sick, his ministers will come in and they’ll do the whole, “Do you want absolution for your sins? Let’s do confession, give you communion, and then you can die peacefully,” they’ll do that whole thing because he’s the king. And he, in those cases, sends whoever his mistress is at the time away so that he can be absolved of all his sins, and then he’ll bring the mistress back when he gets better. This has happened a couple of times before, but this time, like, this is the big one. He is convinced to send du Barry away. And right away, I think, instantly regrets it. He asks her for her to be brought to him and he gets told, like, she’s already gone and he weeps because he wants her by his side. But it’s this weird official relationship that is frowned upon in the eyes of the church. So, he can’t have her with him on his deathbed.
Ann: And then, like, that’s it for her and her Versailles era. Like, she…
Amanda: She’s done.
Ann: Marie Antoinette is not going to let her stay. She leaves. She goes off to live in a place called Louveciennes.
Amanda: Well, before she gets… So, Lou— Yeah, I can’t pronounce it either.
Ann: It’s a very long word.
Amanda: Louvec… So, that’s the chateau that the king had given her. But before she makes it there, she’s actually briefly sent off to a convent.
Ann: Oh, that’s right! Yes.
Amanda: Louis on his deathbed is, like, coerced into signing a document that will basically imprison du Barry at a convent, the Pont-aux-Dames, so the Bridge of Women. This place is, it’s a 1,000-year-old convent. It is dark and damp and dank and depressing. Du Barry is going from lavish, like, living large at Versailles to literally, it sounds like living in a cellar. She pulls some strings with some of her allies at court who, she’s going from, she used to have, like, 16 footmen and 16 maids waiting on her to now, I think she had to pull strings to get one maid and to get some very basic furniture brought in, including a bed and some chairs. Like, she wasn’t going to have furniture.
So, she goes to live at this convent. But remember, she had a convent education. The way of life there, I don’t think is foreign to her, it’s just very different to how she has been living at Versailles. So, she charms the nuns, she wins over the nuns; she goes to prayers with them every day, she helps them with chores. And a year later, her exile is lifted. Essentially, she’s not allowed back at court, but she’s allowed to leave this convent. And the nuns also, as she’s driving away, are weeping and sobbing to see her go [giggles] because they love her so much.
Ann: That’s the thing, like, partially it’s the hotness because that just makes people like people. But she was just like a sweet, nice person.
Amanda: It sounds like, yeah.
Ann: She just had a good personality too.
Amanda: Again, a little different than the Sofia Coppola movie where Asia Argento is, I think, cast to be a foil to Marie Antoinette in that movie and we’re seeing it through Marie’s eyes. But yeah, it sounds like everyone who actually met and interacted with du Barry enjoyed being around her. Yeah, it’s so interesting that she has this amazing superpower hotness, and also, she’s just so charming and nice. Just warm and friendly.
Amanda: Her one, I don’t even want to call it a vice, her one shortcoming is she just isn’t very politically informed and isn’t very well-read. She’s not the brightest bulb in the box, but she’s beautiful, she’s charming, and that is enough to get you ahead in the old regime in France. And obviously, we are headed towards revolution so we will see if that takes her much farther in life. But, you know, Louis XVI is king, XV had been his grandfather, and now it’s XVI and he is going to run things his way.
I should also note while we’re here, kind of introducing Louis and Marie Antoinette, they had an interesting relationship in their own right. He never took a mistress and I’m sure you’ll talk more about that in the Marie Ant episode, but Louis [chuckles] puts all of his hopes and dreams on Marie Antoinette; she is both wife and mistress. And what historians mean when they say that is she is influencing his private life, she is providing him children, eventually, and she is a political advisor, which does not turn out well for her. There’s a reason that there’s this position of official mistress in France, and a lot of that is to take some of the scrutiny off of the queen so that your political foreign alliances can be preserved, and the king can have, like, some personal pleasure in who he’s spending his time with. So, Marie Antoinette kind of shoots herself in the foot by sending du Barry away, because there is nobody to deflect from the court gossip anymore. She is the only woman at court that is going to absorb all the courtiers’ and the public’s dissatisfaction.
Ann: That’s so interesting. And that I don’t know what the connection is exactly, but it reminds me a bit of Kate Middleton and Meghan Markle.
Amanda: A little bit!
Ann: Or no, it reminds me of Prince Harry, actually, because it’s like when he was there, he and Meghan could be the scapegoat for everything. And then when he left, then Will and Kate are just like, “Wait a minute… Wait a minute.” [laughs]
Amanda: Yeah, hang on.
Ann: “Who’s going to distract from us anymore?” You’ve got to keep a scapegoat around.
Amanda: It’s a real like, “I never thought the leopard would eat my face kind of moment.” And Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI have to face this because Louis, not just du Barry herself, he exiles anybody with the name du Barry from court, which I think is so funny, because the marriage between Jeanne and du Barry is such a sham, they never lived together but anybody with that name is going to benefit from their distant connection to her. So, some courtiers that are named du Barry start changing their name so that they can stay at Versailles, and some of them do get sent away.
Marie Antoinette wrote, I think in a letter she wrote, “The king has limited himself to sending the creature,” meaning Jeanne, “to a convent and chasing from the court everything tarred with the name of scandal.” And even her mother, Maria Theresa, is like, “You’re going a little too hard here.” Marie, Maria Theresa writes to Marie Antoinette and says, like, you guys, you and Louis need to stop gloating over this woman. Like, I don’t know what your obsession is with her. But she said you need to stop gloating over the downfall of a, “Unfortunate creature who has lost everything and was more in need of pity than everyone else.” So, you know, she was labelled, du Barry was labelled as this, like, symbol of debauchery and immorality. But I think even Maria Theresa recognizes, like, “I don’t think you guys should be laughing here. Without her, things are going to be harder for you.”
Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s such a good, like, listeners remember this for later on in terms of what ends up happening to Marie Antoinette. But yeah, if you get rid of the scapegoat, then you become the scapegoat.
Amanda: Yeah, because du Barry, like, she was not popular with the French public, not only for her lavish lifestyle and all her jewels but because she represents, on a deeper level, she represents the old regime, because kings took mistresses, that’s what they did. But it was always this system that was, like, impenetrable to outsiders. So, du Barry, as much as she had, like, a very impoverished upbringing, she is a royalist at heart and she’s a monarchist, and she represents the old way of doing things.
The new public in France—spoiler alert: Revolution—they are now demanding transparency, they are demanding accountability from the monarchy, and du Barry was part of that system that did not have either of those things. So, it’s an interesting… interesting… What’s the word I want? I don’t know, turn of events, an interesting turn of events where du Barry represents these things, but also Marie Antoinette still does as well because she is so staunch in her support of monarchy. But yeah, now Marie Antoinette is the one representing both the official side of things and the immoral messaging and the “Let them eat cake” side of things.
Ann: And we’ll return to her in a later episode, listeners.
Amanda: [chuckles] Yes. We’ll leave her there.
Ann: But du Barry… So, she leaves the convent, the nuns all love her, and she goes to this house or town, Louveciennes, which is anyway, like it’s a huge, fancy manor. And she was having a very nice time. She was like, she got to go and, like, hang out in her garden, entertaining, like, some of her friends from Versailles would come and hang out with her. It says here, “Now that she was no longer an object of jealousy and political machinations, these people felt free to enjoy the glow of her charm and hospitality.”
Amanda: [chuckles] Yeah. She is coming off of the high of being a royal mistress, but she does still have those natural charms. She also amassed some considerable wealth as she was official mistress. So, she starts to give to charity at the same time as she is building up the gardens at this house, she’s ordering statues, she’s patronizing the arts still. So yeah, it sounds like it’s just, like, a very enchanting, I’m thinking of, like, pre-curse Beauty and the Beast castle where everything is just beautiful and lovely and it is this ancient regime, old world, like, type of beauty. But yeah, she would have these parties, and she would entertain nobles, not just from France, but across Europe, people would come to meet her because they wanted to just look at her. They wanted to see…
Ann: They’re just like, “I’ve heard that you’re the hottest person who ever lived.”
Amanda: “I’ve heard so much about you and you bewitched the 60-year-old king so, like, we just want to be in the same room as you.” Even people who had been at Versailles under Louis XV and who had been to du Barry’s enemy would come visit. On one occasion, a former Versailles courtier came to visit and said to her, “There was no hatred but we all wanted to have your place.” So, like, “Sorry for being such a jealous bitch. You were too hot and we wanted to be in your shoes.” [chuckles]
Ann: Which is so interesting that after she left Versailles, people were just like, “Well, forget her. She’s gone.” They’re all like, “I want to go hang out with her. I secretly always wanted to hang out with her and now I can.”
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously.
Ann: Such is her power.
Amanda: Yeah, really. And she, like I said, she is a royalist, she still represents this connection to monarchy, even though she and Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette are persona non grata, they do not talk, they have a very strained relationship, there’s no connection there. Du Barry still represents the monarchy and I think you can see that really clearly because she was painted three times in the 1780s by Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun, who is the famous female court painter that Marie Antoinette also loved. She painted Marie Antoinette several times, but she’s also going to Louveciennes to paint du Barry. And I think that’s because Vigée Le Brun, also a royalist, also a monarchist, it just goes to show you that there are different ways that you can be, like, a supporter of monarchy at this time, pre-revolution.
Ann: Yeah. And I’m probably going to do an episode about Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun at some point. She painted the Marie Antoinette portrait that Deborah Wong reinterpreted to be the image for this podcast, for this series.
But yeah, it’s interesting. It’s, like, you can support the monarchy while you still personally hate the person.
Amanda: The current monarch. Yeah, absolutely.
Ann: Yeah, it’s like “I support the monarchy, but I hate that bitch.”
Amanda: Well, and du Barry, even in some of these paintings, in these portraits, she is very visually similar to Marie Antoinette. At this time, Marie Antoinette’s doing her simple, she’s in her simple phase. She’s wearing the chemise dresses, lots of flowers, straw hats. There’s a painting of du Barry where at first glance, I would completely forgive you if you thought it was Marie Antoinette. So, she is also, I think, recognizing that the current queen is the tastemaker, is influencing style. She’s a trendy woman, she’s going to portray herself that way and Vigée Le Brun paints her so charmingly in these portraits. She conveys what one historian calls “du Barry’s basic goodness which no doubt helped to seal her reinstatement in society.”
Ann: I want to say the word ‘basic’ is a word that… complementary. I feel like Jeanne du Barry was a basic person.
Amanda: She was uncomplicated.
Ann: She was just like, “I like pretty things.” And I think because she was so beautiful, she took advantage of the opportunity she was given. It’s always said that she sort of spoke in almost like a baby talk lisp when she was talking to men. Like, she knew what she was doing, but also she never had to struggle, really, because she kept being chosen because she was so hot. So, she never had to really develop beyond a basic personality of just, like, “Life is nice and people treat me nicely and everything’s great!” It’s like, [hushed tone] “Well, that’s because you’re hot.”
Amanda: Oh, definitely. And she knows where to go to get ahead. After King Louis XV dies, she does start a new relationship, she takes a new lover. This is the Duke de Brissac, who was a military commander prominent at Versailles. So, he’s a monarchist as well, even under Louis XVI. So, she still allies herself, even as revolution is raging in the background, it’s not quite penetrating du Barry’s world just yet and she is still kind of just going with what she knows. She’s hosting parties, she’s trying on jewellery, she is romancing, dashing military men from court, and she’s having a great time, for now.
Ann: ”Everything’s going so well!” [both chuckle] Trademark, Moulin Rouge. But then anyway, so the Revolution, you know, begins.
Amanda: It pops off.
Ann: So, we’re in 1789. The first time that the Revolution penetrates her life.
Amanda: Literally.
Ann: Some soldiers who had escaped— So, we’re going to talk about this in later episodes, listeners, we’re not going to get into the French Revolution. There’s enough to talk about today.
Amanda: Just google it if you don’t know anything.
Ann: But basically, two soldiers had escaped the mob at Versailles during the women’s march, and she was like, “Come stay with me at my house. That’s cool.” And then she just kind of like let various people, she said like, “Oh, the royals can stay here too. I have this great house. Like, anyone can come here!”
Amanda: “I’m such a good hostess.”
Ann: Yeah, that was her vibe. And then she… Okay, I don’t… [chuckles] In the thing I’m looking at, it doesn’t say various details. But basically, some of her jewels were stolen and this turns into a whole tragic thing.
Amanda: Well, before, before we get to that, I will also say like, I’m pretty sure one of the first, like, casualties of the Revolution is her new lover. The timing, I’m a little hazy on the timing, but eventually, the Duke de Brissac gets caught up in a mob and he is beheaded and his head is first put on a pike and then I think thrown into one of du Barry’s residences. So, again…
Ann: Wait, no, wait. “Some of the mob then marched to Louveciennes, broke in and rolled his severed head across the floor to her.”
Amanda: Yeah. So, like, the Revolution is encroaching on her, like, comfortable little world.
Ann: Okay, yes.
Amanda: She knows it’s happening but she’s still, again, operating the way she knows how she also is still entertaining; she’s still throwing parties, she’s mingling with the aristocracy, she lets people stay at her house, which maybe contributes to the fact that 1.5 million livres of her jewels are stolen. There’s also some evidence that she is also quietly selling off some of her jewellery, maybe building up, like, a little cache of savings in case she needs to flee. But that’s foresight I don’t even think she was, like, I don’t think she was that thoughtful about it. I think she just needed cash, honestly.
Ann: One of the things that happened is that… So, her jewellery was stolen and then she’s like, “Oh, my god, my jewels have been stolen!” And so, then she had handbills distributed, describing the missing gems in detail…
Amanda: [laughs] With pictures!
Ann: In January 1791.
Amanda: Stupid.
Ann: She’s just like, “Hey! You, poor people of the village. These are the specific jewels I have.”
Amanda: Yeah, “It’s me, Madame du Barry. I am so beautiful. Have you seen my jewels?” [laughs]
Ann: Yeah. “Remember me? Like, everyone kind of hated me for a long time because I represent the ancient regime that you’re down in a revolution against. Have you seen my jewels?” [chuckles] And then this turns into a whole thing.
Amanda: The stupidest thing she does, though… They eventually turn up in England, she gets word that her jewels have turned up through some, I guess they were pawned or something. She sails to London, which, let me be clear, a lot of aristocrats were trying to do because of the Revolution and they wanted to get away and get to safety. She gets permission from the revolutionary government to sail to London, and then she sails back to France at least, I think, three times. She goes back and forth, back and forth from London to France… in the middle of a revolution. [laughs]
Ann: And it’s all just to sort of like keep following up, follow-up meetings about, like, the prosecution of the jewel thieves.
So, this is where she gets caught up with— I just want to shout out Irish adventurer Nathaniel Parker Forth who just seems like a real cad type person, and he was widely known to be an English agent. So, I think he was being like, ”Oh yeah, can you come back and forth a few more times?” I think he was getting smuggling some stuff back and forth with her without her knowledge was part of what was going on with this.
Amanda: Yeah. She later gets accused of, like, orchestrating this whole thing and arranging that the jewels would be stolen. But I think that’s so unlikely. Again, given that she sails back to France. [laughs] She has this chance of escaping with this money that comes out of this jewellery theft and she just never takes that out. So, I don’t think she had a lot of forethought going on in that pretty head of hers. She does return to France in the middle of the Revolution.
Ann: I want to say when she’s in London, a recurring theme in this series, much to my annoyance, are the jump scares of George IV, AKA Prinny, showing up in every story. So, she goes to London, and this is when he is, I don’t, he’s not the Regent yet. But basically, she just goes there, she hangs out with his mistress, Maria Fitzherbert. She buys souvenirs while she’s there, including a portrait of Prinny and she brings that back to France where I’m just like, I support women’s rights and women’s wrongs, but…
Amanda: She’s pushing it.
Ann: Like, that’s your souvenir? A portrait of goddamn Prinny?
Amanda: It’s like going to Buckingham Palace and buying a portrait of Camilla.
Ann: Yeah. It’s just like, this is what you chose?
Amanda: This is what you went with? Yeah.
Ann: But yeah, no. So, she’s going back and forth and it’s like, just stay there.
Amanda: You’re fine.
Ann: But she’s, like, hosting parties there. She’s like shopping. And all the while, like the whole thing about like the trial of the people who stole the jewels, it’s like, well, they’re English people so can they be tried in England for stealing French things? It’s all just kind of like bureaucracy and she’s just going back and forth. And it’s just like…
Amanda: I would love to see, like, a hard cut from like the mobs in France, the sea of blood from the Reign of Terror. And then just Madame du Barry shopping, a montage of her shopping, getting her hair done, looking into the theft of her jewels in France, like, having a grand time.
Ann: It just feels like the way that people talk about Marie Antoinette now is what Madame du Barry actually was like.
Amanda: Yeah, a little bit.
Ann: Like she was the one who was just kind of like, “Nothing to do with me. Doo-doo-doo!”
Amanda: Yeah. So yeah, it must have been a huge surprise to her when she gets back to France. And a couple of years later, like a year or two later, she’s arrested on charges of treason and espionage because of, I think, sailing to London so often and because she was consorting with émigrés, these aristocrats that she would host at her house, which eventually they all tried to flee. So, her association with them ended up getting her in a little bit of trouble. Well, a lot of trouble.
Ann: Okay. So, there’s this guy, I don’t know how much he comes up on what you’ve read, but his name is George Grieve and he is just her number one hater. I don’t know where he came from or what his deal is, but he just had it out for her. Like, who is this guy?
Amanda: Well, because she stands for everything wrong with the monarchy. And if we want to burn the system to the ground, people like du Barry are number one on the list, it seems like.
Ann: So, George Grieve, he’s an English radical. He had been in the American colonies during that revolution and then came here. He’s just, like, a revolution groupie. And he started a revolutionary club. And he was obsessively hate— It was like the “We Hate Madame du Barry” club.
Amanda: It’s like when you have a hater online who is just obsessed with you and like, you know, they’re obsessed with you, but they’re just saying all this nasty shit and they just want your attention is really what it’s about.
Ann: So, he got various informants, including Louis-Benoît Zamor, who was her page, who was a Black man from… he was Bengali. And there are some portraits of actually I mentioned earlier, the portrait of her being delivered her hot chocolate in the morning, having her toilette in Versailles; Zamor is the one who is presenting the hot chocolate. So, he’s often painted with her. I think it’s a contrast of like, she’s so blonde and fair, and he has a darker complexion. And she did not treat him well because she treated him as a pet, effectively. So, he was all too happy to just, like, let George Grieve in, let George Grieve steal some stuff, like, tell him all the stuff that she’d been doing.
Yeah, and so George Grieve is just, like, her number one hater. He’s just like, “Arrest this bitch. I hate her.” [Amanda laughs] Like, there’s one part of the story where he is, it was in the Joan Haslip biography where he’s like, she’s not in the house and he’s in the house and they’re describing him just sitting in the room surrounded by portraits of her just being like “I hate her.” [laughs]
Amanda: [laughs] Just seething, yeah.
Ann: Like, I don’t know. Yeah, get a hobby, George Grieve.
Amanda: This is his hobby.
Ann: Fair. I know. But kind of like with Marie Antoinette, it’s like, once you get rid of her, what’s left for you, George Grieve?
Amanda: Right. Right. Yeah. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Ann: Like, painting. Play golf. I don’t know.
Amanda: Flower arranging, something.
Ann: Anyway, so he, I mean, on this podcast, you know you’re a hater when you publish a pamphlet, we have a pamphlet moment. So, he publishes a pamphlet describing her, “crimes.” And he says, “Who am I, George Grieve? Well, I’m a friend of Benjamin Franklin so you should listen to me. I am a disorganizer of despotism in the two hemispheres for the last 20 years. I’m George Grieve!” And he just kept going to, like, I don’t know about the French Revolution, but whoever was in charge. [laughs softly]
Amanda: There were various committees, just these dudes banding together to call the shots. Yeah. Other dudes.
Ann: He’s just, like, petitioning… Yeah, he just goes to various committees and just like, “I hate Madame du Barry. Can we arrest her? Can we arrest Madame du Barry?”
Amanda: They’re like, “Absolutely!”
Ann: Yeah, exactly. So, then she was arrested and then there is some evidence that when he went to capture her and/or when they were in the carriage riding to Paris, he may have raped her as well.
Amanda: Yeah. Or at least attempted to assault her, which yeah, number one hater, but also obsessed.
Ann: Yeah. Yeah! George Grieve. Oh, this is where… Okay, so George Grieve. So, he sent her off to be in prison and then he’s just, like, in Louveciennes and then he was just like sitting in this room surrounded by paintings of her and he was working in documents with a 15-count indictment. Like, I just picture him just like, I don’t know if coffee was a thing, but just, like, [chuckles] staying up for 72 hours, just being like, [intense, gruff voice] “And she did this, and she did this…” with this like quill pen or whatever, just in this room surrounded by pictures of her. And it was everything you said. It’s just like, “Were you secretly funding the emigres? Were you smuggling things back and forth to England?”
Amanda: “Were you spying?” Yeah, exactly.
Ann: “Or are you just kind of like a silly person who doesn’t get it?” I would argue she was a silly person who just didn’t get it.
Amanda: Yeah. And that made her an easy target. You know, the Revolution, so much of it was about looking busy and looking like they were affecting change and cleaning house and draining the swamp, whatever you want to say. So many innocent people and… even looking guilty was enough to condemn you. So, she was put on trial, but it was a bit of a sham trial. When she was found guilty, the jury returned in an hour, after deliberating, at 11:00 PM and found her guilty on all counts. She was sentenced very quickly. She was supposed to die by guillotine the next morning.
Ann: And then this is where…
Amanda: She doesn’t really get it.
Ann: No. Everything in her life to this point, like, always worked out for her.
Amanda: Pretty privilege.
Ann: Yeah, pretty privilege. Even though, like, she was born poor and stuff, like, things always worked out so she just had this faith in humanity. And so, she’s like, okay, well, when she knew that the revolution was coming for her, she like buried a bunch of her jewels and things in various spots on her property. And she’s like, “Okay, well, if I tell them exactly what I hid and where, then maybe they will free me.”
Amanda: Yeah, she tries to bargain with, it sounds like not even the committee, or the jury, or the trial or whatever, it’s the executioners at this point. She promises to tell them where everything’s buried, where all of her valuables are hidden in exchange for… Aww, Hepburn! [laughs]
Ann: Yup. She’s got feelings. She’s like, “Oh no! This poor dumb bitch.”
Amanda: [chuckles] Yeah, really. And the executioners agree. They’re like, “Okay, that sounds great.” So, they interrogate her for three hours, they take down her statements about jewels being buried in the garden, silverware that she threw into the pond, she had paintings in the mill. Three hours, they let her spill all of these secrets and then at the end, it literally is like they’re like, “Okay, thank you.” And they tie her hands and send a guy in to cut her hair and that’s the moment she knows she fucked up. Of course, these men who have already sentenced her to die are not going to just… I mean, also, yes, she was a little bit of a dumb bitch in this moment, because you should have let them let you go first and then maybe shown them where your stuff was. [chuckles] But they decide to execute her anyway.
Ann: I just want to mention like, you know, we’re getting towards the end of her story. And as you know, as a listener to this podcast, we’re going to be giving her some scores later on. But I just feel like her Schemieness is going to be a low number.
Amanda: Yeah… yeah.
Ann: She’s just vibes. She’s just… If vibes is a category, she’s vibes. Anyway, that was her attempt to try and talk herself out of being executed. But also, I think one of the reasons, like you were saying, they were going after kind of anybody, but like she’s such a symbol of the old regime and also just of like, not consumerism, because that wouldn’t that wasn’t… but just of like the luxury…
Amanda: Hedonism.
Ann: Hedonism and the luxury and spending money when people are starving, like she… Of course, they went after her. Would they have if she hadn’t put out the pamphlets being like, “I Madame du Barry, own these jewels. Help me find my jewels.”?
Amanda: There were ways to get around being persecuted, even if you are aristocratic, even if you had been at the court of Versailles, like, if you played your cards right, you could make it out. But she just had no cards left to play. She didn’t even know that she was playing a game, it sounds like, until it was too late and she was already sentenced to death.
Ann: Well, that’s the thing, every time she went to England, which was, like, three or four times…
Amanda: Three or four times!
Ann: And then she went back, then she went back again. Like, she’s just like, “That was a nice visit. Doo-doo-doo.” So, I don’t, I’m not victim-blaming a victim of the French Revolution, but I will say she just didn’t get it. She didn’t get it.
Amanda: There were no hints. There were no hints, Madame du Barry? You had no indication this was happening?
Ann: By this point, Marie Antoinette… Like, her lover’s head was thrown at her. It’s like, you know, they’re killing people.
Amanda: Right. They’ve already killed Louis, Louis and Marie Antoinette at this point. This is 1793 in December so, like, they’ve already been executed at this point, haven’t they? I’m not good with dates.
Ann: No… Yeah, no, because… I’ll tell you in a second why I know. But she is executed, basically.
Amanda: Yeah, January.
Ann: And this is like, you know, sometimes in the reading you do as well, I’m sure, you know, when you hear about Anne Boleyn or whoever and the way that people compose themselves when they’re facing execution? She is not one of the dignified ones, which, fair enough! This is a terrifying thing that’s happening. There’s people that are watching. So, she struggled, she cries, she had to be wrestled up the steps.
Amanda: Yeah, they dragged her up.
Ann: I like to see this fight from her. I like that she at this point understands what’s happening.
Amanda: And she’s trying, I think, one more time to put that pretty privilege to use. She’s weeping, it’s very tragic. She’s begging the executioners. You know, she’s saying, “Please don’t hurt me. Oh, my god, you’re going to hurt me. Please don’t hurt me,” as they’re dragging her up the steps. And when she’s like, physically in front of the guillotine, which… Guillotine, argh! It’s supposed to be humane and I guess it is when you compare it to an axe man, taking three or four tries to get your head off of your shoulders.
Ann: It’s more efficient.
Amanda: Yes, definitely. But she’s in front of the guillotine, they make her kneel down and she is begging “Just a moment. Just one more minute, give me one more minute, please.” And it’s just, yeah, not very dignified at all.
Ann: No, and I mean, nor should it be. But it’s just notable to me, like so many people, like, Jane Grey or whoever it’s like, and she read her prepared statements.
Amanda: Yeah. Well, and it’s so interesting too, because we’re talking about a mistress, not somebody born and bred in royalty. Composure and dignity is such a currency, especially at the Court of Versailles, and especially when it comes to an official mistress. And du Barry has had some problems in the past with keeping her composure. Let’s throw it back when Louis XV was still alive, there was an episode where there was talk of him taking another royal bride and du Barry apparently threw a fit in front of everybody. She went into this jealous rage and Louis kind of sent her to her room and said, “I’m not going to see you until you can compose yourself,” and it took her a couple days. So, it seems like composure has never been one of her skills. And I don’t know if that’s because of the pretty privilege, because of the fact that she wasn’t born to that, she always was kind of relying on her ability to be this warm, emotional person. And in her last moment, that’s kind of what comes out.
Ann: Yeah. Well, I think she’s just somebody who got what she wanted so much of the time, it’s like incomprehensible to her that something’s not going her way because it happens so rarely.
Amanda: Yeah, “What do you mean? What do you mean?” So, it’s sad, she does get guillotined, they do not grant her request for one more moment. She is beheaded and her body is dumped apparently in the same unmarked grave as Marie Antoinette.
Ann: Yeah, Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI, and that’s how I knew when you were asking that they were already dead.
Amanda: They were already dead.
Ann: And then the Roué was also killed as well in the same time period.
And so, I just have this quote here. So, I was excited that Choderlos de Laclos, the author of Les Liaisons Dangereuses, my favourite movie/play/ scandalous novel. He wrote, “Her only fault was her birth and in those who had debauched and debased her.” I think that is not her only fault but that was kind of him to say. [laughs softly]
Amanda: I think he’s saying the only action she took, like, was being born in a not-so-great situation.
Ann: Fair.
Amanda: That’s the only thing she ever did.
Ann: Oh okay!
Amanda: I think we’re thinking of her flaw as like inaction of being unaware of your surroundings and I think he’s maybe saying like, “The only flaw that you can actually say she did in her life was her birth.” [laughs]
Ann: Yeah, unfortunately, which was not prestigious. So, I like… I’ll just quote this from this article:
By any account, she was impulsive, frivolous and unheeding, fatally so yet she was also kind, genuine and generous. She never used her power as she could have done to harm others, to imprison, or to kill.
Amanda: Yeah, just a soft person.
Ann: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, “Child of the people though she was,” like, a poor person, “she never understood the depths of the hatred they’d come to bear towards her, her aristocratic friends and the glittering world of unearned privilege they inhabited,” which is… Yeah, she just never…
Amanda: Yeah, it seems like she wasn’t tapped into the rhetoric going on at this time. She wasn’t a patroness of the enlightenment like Madame de Pompadour had been. If politicians came to her for access to the king, it was literally just because of how physically close she was to him, and if you got in her circle, you would get close to the king. They weren’t appealing to her on an intellectual level, right? It was purely access. So, I mean, it makes sense. She is very unaware, it seems, of what’s going on around her.
Ann: Yeah, I mean, it gets extreme, like, it turns into she’s intentionally choosing to not learn what’s going on. Like, at the point they throw her lover’s severed head at her, she’s just like, “I’m just going to take a trip to England and then come back.” There’s a certain point at which you would think that somebody would pick up on what’s going on but I think she chose to believe that it wasn’t that big a deal and to just kind of avoid thinking about it.
Amanda: Yeah. And like you said earlier, that’s what Marie Antoinette gets accused of the “Let them eat cake” line, which I’m sure you will talk about how she never fucking said it. [laughs] But Marie Antoinette, she wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed, but she was politically engaged, she did try to influence policy. At least she tried. The really clueless ditzy blonde, counting her jewels, eating cake, that was du Barry.
Ann: Yeah, yeah! Like everything that people say, that people assume about Marie Antoinette, it’s like they’ve conflated with actually what du Barry was like. I have nothing against du Barry.
Amanda: And it wasn’t from a place of maliciousness.
Ann: No, exactly! She wasn’t, like, a mean girl at all. She was just kind of like, she grew up poor. She saw she was very insulated. She saw this Francesca, the woman who is the courtesan and she’s like, “Oh, I want that. I want nice things.” And then she got them. She was basic. She was just simple. She’s like, “This is what I want and now I have it. The end. I’m not ambitious beyond that and now I have it. So, great.” Yeah, I don’t have anything bad to say about her. But we were talking and, listeners, if you’re on the Patreon, you can listen to our Aftershow I did with Amanda. But it’s like, we’re not here to be like, “She was great! Justice for Madame du Barry.” But we’re also not here to be like, “She was awful.” We’re just being like, here’s who she was. And I think she was, like, ineffective, but she didn’t need to be effective, she was just kind of like…
Amanda: That wasn’t the point for her.
Ann: No! She succeeded in doing the things that she wanted to, and she just got caught up in a…
Amanda: She made the king happy.
Ann: She made the king happy and that’s what he wanted. He wanted to be happy and she did that for him. And I don’t know, I don’t know, she’s just such a… You know what? Let’s get into it.
Let’s get into the scoring because I’m interested where she’s going to land. So, the first category is the Scandaliciousness, how scandalous was she seen by other people? And I think she was seen even in a very libertine Court of Versailles where there’s, like, mistresses and stuff, the fact that she was lower born, I think scandalized people. Like, working in the hat shop.
Amanda: [chuckles] There were a lot of rumours attached to her which, that is what scandalized people and there were a lot of pamphlets distributed about her, there were a lot of body poems written about her and that is what the court kind of seized on as far as the scandal associated with her. But honestly, yeah, her existence alone was scandalous at Versailles.
Ann: Yeah. Well, because I like to think about how can we delineate like, what did she do that was scandalous versus did people just wrongly think she was scandalous? But I think it’s hard to say because, like, there were things like this hat shop, and then she got caught up with the Roué and he was a pimp for other people and, like, wealthy men were like… It’s not scandalous that that was happening, like, to society at large, but they were so scandalized by her elevation, I guess.
Amanda: But then later in her life, you have those same people going to Louveciennes, or whatever, and saying, “We’re sorry. It wasn’t that big a deal, we were just jealous.” [laughs]
Ann: “I always liked you,” yeah. But then if you ask, like, the Paris mob at the guillotine, she was scandalous because she…
Amanda: Her existence, pretty scandalous.
Ann: Yeah! She’s not… I don’t want to take away, like, the choices she made in her life, which she did make some. But she didn’t do a lot of things. [chuckles] You know?
Amanda: She was not a person of action, it seems like.
Ann: No. I mean, like, she was often chosen or singled out because she was beautiful and because she had a nice personality, but those weren’t choices she made, that’s just, like, how she was born. And she took advantage.
Amanda: Yeah, if she lived up to the hype around her, it was because she was so beautiful and she was able to leverage that and kind of wedge herself in where she needed to be. It wasn’t because she was actually doing scandalous things.
Ann: Yeah, I mean, I’m just thinking, like, you know, she did the backwards curtsies. It’s like, you know, she worked for things she did, like, she pulled that off, that would have been very challenging to do. But I don’t see her as intentionally a scandalous person although she was seen as scandalous.
Amanda: Not intentionally, yeah.
Ann: Yeah. So, she gets points. So, I don’t know where that lands on a 0 to 10. Like, where would you put that?
Amanda: I’m thinking, like, a 3, because she did… She was sort of unapologetic in coming into court occupying this role, fulfilling all of the king’s wishes, despite how that looked to people, and she did kind of go against the tide in terms of bathing, that was a little scandalous, how much she loved a rose-scented bath, and her hot chocolate every day at 9:00 AM on the dot. So, a low, low, low, Scandalicious score. I would say 3.
Ann: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that, like, there’s something there but she wasn’t… She’s not running around Versailles tits-out.
Amanda: Not to the level… Right, right.
Ann: So, her Schemieness.
Amanda: Yes. [laughs] Poor girl. Man, it seems like everyone was scheming on her behalf, more than anything.
Ann: I know. I’m just… Did she do any schemes?
Amanda: No. Honestly, the court factions that rose up around her were kind of, again, using her as a proxy in this fight, it was never for her… I don’t want to say it wasn’t for her personal gain but, like, she didn’t cause drama, just to cause drama, if that makes sense.
Ann: Yeah. And then, like, the Roué saw her and, like, taught her how to become the royal mistress and then she did, but that was his scheme and she just kind of went along with it. There wasn’t…
Amanda: There was sort of a fundamental schemieness to her where she knew the life she wanted and she knew that she had what it took, it seems like.
Ann: She would do what it took to do it, yeah.
Amanda: Right, right. But it doesn’t seem like there was a…
Ann: No, there wasn’t a plan. She never was like, “Here is how I’m going to get the things I want,” but I do think, you’re right, there’s an inherent…
Amanda: At all costs.
Ann: I think that she, another person might have been, like, as pretty as she was, but that was like, “Okay, well, I’m poor. I guess I’ll just go be a chambermaid.” The end. Like, she did know that she was hot and, like, with like the talking with—
Amanda: She aspired.
Ann: She aspired, and I think she used flirtation to get things, and that is inherently low-key schemey. She wasn’t just like, “Oh, I’m beautiful and these things are happening to me.” It’s, like, she was an active participant in the schemes other people put her in.
Amanda: She did charm some nuns so there has to be some ability to read a room to, you know, know who you’re talking to. [laughs]
Ann: Well, and also, I think even like, even being trained by the Roué, it’s like, “Here’s how you can win the king.” But she had to do that. Like, it’s not just like show up and be hot. It’s, like, there had to be an emotional intelligence.
Amanda: She was mouldable. Yeah, she was mouldable, but she was still a participant.
Ann: I think I’m going to give her in terms of Schemieness, like, I don’t want to give her no credit for what she was able to achieve, but it’s just, like, she wasn’t the one scheming. She wasn’t writing letters and plans.
Amanda: And her schemes were very good. When she schemed to get her jewels back, she issued a detailed description and distributed it across revolutionary France.
Ann: When she started scheming, they were bad schemes. It’s true.
Amanda: Yeah, they weren’t good.
Ann: It’s true. I feel like for her Schemieness, I think it might be like a 3 again as well.
Amanda: Yeah, 3 or a 4.
Ann: I’ll give her a 4 because I do want to give her some credit. She wasn’t just entirely just a mindless prop for other people. Like, once she was put in those positions, she was able to stay in those positions, which means that she had some smarts.
Amanda: There was some self-preservation. Some.
Ann: 4 out of 10, self-preservation.
So, Significance, and you can interpret that however. I think that her name is famous, I think that she’s remembered. Like, even people like me, I didn’t exactly know what the deal was, but like I’ve heard of Madame du Barry. She appears in films and things, like, she’s a significant part of this significant story of, like, the French Revolution and Marie Antoinette. I don’t know about her significance in life.
Amanda: Right. Well, it’s almost her significance is as a foil to Marie Antoinette. So, in my head, I have a score that you’re probably going to give to Marie Antoinette for Significance and I’m kind of going off of that for du Barry because her rivalry with Marie Antoinette is probably what a lot of people know her for. Yeah, her symbolism as a catalyst of the Revolution, I think more than anything, is kind of where her significance lies. The attitudes towards her, more than anything. So, that doesn’t count for nothing.
Ann: No, I think that the fact that she was, that the revolutionaries went after her as sort of like a target once Marie Antoinette was killed, like, I think that she signified that ancient regime at the time. Like, she was significant and then she was so significant that they tracked her down and killed her.
Amanda: Right.
Ann: I think in terms… This is a tricky one because it’s not like, well, she invented whatever, or like she wrote this famous book. There’s nothing of that. But just, like, her vibes and the way that they were sort of today misunderstood as being Marie Antoinette’s vibes is… I’m going to say like a 6. What do you think?
Amanda: Yeah, I was going to say 5. I think 6 is fair because if you don’t know Louis XV’s wife’s name, you probably know Madame du Barry, right?
Ann: Yeah. Well, and honestly, when we were planning this and you were like, “I can do one of the royal mistresses,” and I was just like, “Okay, which one?” Because, like, to me, not having read about her at all before, I’m like, “I know that there’s Madame de Pompadour, I know there’s Madame du Barry,” and you chose Madame du Barry and I’m like, “Great.” And then when I read the book, I’m like, “Oh, I’m so glad this is who you chose” because this is like…
Amanda: Pompadour tells a different story, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Du Barry’s story does align more with the end of the old regime and the beginning of the Revolution. So, in that light, yeah. 6, I think for significance.
Ann: I think so. I’m interested when I inevitably get to Madame de Pompadour, where she’s going to be for Significance because it’s just such a different story.
The final category, and I will say the scores and their highness and lowness doesn’t mean whether it was a fun story or not [laughs] but she’s not getting high scores. The final category is the Sexism Bonus: how much did patriarchy get in her way? And I think not at all. I think she used it to her advantage.
Amanda: Yeah, during her life, yes. I think in the historical record, that’s a different story. So, I think it depends on how you’re approaching sexism. [chuckles]
Ann: Fair. Yeah, because well, in her life, I don’t know, because it’s more like classism when people are like, “Oh, she’s a prostitute,” or whatever. Because women who were mistresses were kind of revered in general. I think in her life, sexism did not get in her way. I think she was able to manipulate men around her to get what she wanted by using the fact that she was hot and youthful.
Amanda: And some women.
Ann: And some women! Fair. Yeah, she’s able to use just her gorgeousness to her advantage.
Amanda: There may have been some internalized misogyny in Marie Antoinette’s hatred of her. But like you said, that could also be classism, it could be a whole host of things, honestly. There was this sense that she… I mean, the courtiers at Versailles did ostracize her because of the association with prostitution, where it is about low-class women using their feminine wiles for personal gain. So, like, there’s a modicum of sexism in that.
Ann: There’s something there, yeah. And then just the way that she’s remembered in the historical record is just, “Oh, she was this kind of like, sexy bimbo”…
Amanda: Slut, honestly.
Ann: …which she was, but that’s not bad.
Amanda: [laughs] We just watched Practical Magic, me and my friends last night and the midnight margarita scene… Have you seen Practical Magic?
Ann: Yeah, yeah.
Amanda: Which is, they’re all yelling at each other at the kitchen table and Sandra Bullock goes, “Since when is being a slut a bad thing in this family?” [laughs] And I feel like that’s du Barry. Like, since when is being a slut like a negative?
Ann: Yeah. And in the world that she was in, it kind of, I don’t… Like, the purpose of this score is kind of like people where it’s like sexism got in the way and held them back. And I think there was certainly sexism in the way that… George Grieve and, like, the way that he was obsessed with her and maybe assaulted her and stuff, and men were also attacked who were aristocrats. I don’t know. Sexism, I’m going to say, like, 2. What do you think?
Amanda: Yes, that’s what I’m thinking, 2.
Ann: Because it’s certainly there, but I would say it, unlike some other people have talked about in the podcast, this did not get in the way.
Amanda: She could have had a much worse time. Let’s be honest.
Ann: Yes. Yes. I think, like, the men who she encountered often saw a usefulness for her and she leaned into that.
Amanda: She was put on a pedestal time and time again, it seems like.
Ann: This is… Okay, I’m just adding her to the Fredegund Memorial Scandaliciousness Scale, she has the second-lowest score of anyone ever.
Amanda: Fantastic.
Ann: Just so you know, with a 15.
Amanda: Wow.
Ann: The lowest score of course is Queen Charlotte, who got a 1. [Amanda laughs] But in terms of people with similar vibes, like, Peggy Shippen, who I think is very familiar to you based on where you live. She got a 19 and I think she has a similar trajectory of just kind of being caught up in world events and was just here for a good time.
Amanda: Yeah, honestly. That feels right.
Ann: Yeah. And then for this season, this is pretty straightforward though, because it’s the Marie Antoinette season, I have my segment, Nothing But Net, to see how many degrees of separation is this person from Marie Antoinette and she is one degree. She knew her. They were frenemies. Like, she was right there, they talked to each other.
Amanda: One time.
Ann: Marie Antoinette talked to her once. [laughs]
Amanda: Yup, one time.
Ann: That’s the closest anyone’s come I think so far on the show. But Amanda, please tell everybody where they can follow you online and how they can keep up with what you’re doing.
Amanda: Yeah, so many things. I primarily make my royal commentary content on TikTok and on Instagram @Matta_Of_Fact, Matta of Fact. I also have my art history podcast, which is Art of History; you can listen to that anywhere you get your podcasts. I enjoy it so much. It’s just… We take a work of art, and we use it as our lens to the past and I tell you a story from history based on that work of art. So, I do have a couple of French Revolution-adjacent episodes, a couple Napoleonic France episodes where we never actually talk about Napoleon, so that’s great.
Ann: As it should be. Also, you just did one with George Washington and Ona Judge was mentioned.
Amanda: Yes! We published our Ona Judge episodes pretty much on the same day, completely coincidentally, which was awesome. But yeah, I do love talking about women from history whenever I can, even though it’s an art podcast. So, the vibes are very similar.
Ann: Absolutely. I mean, thank you so much for joining me. We’ve wanted to do this forever and I’m so happy that we finally got to do this. I always love to have people on to talk about a story that is, like, right in their pocket. Like, a story that is one that you know really well, one that you’re really obviously passionate about because then I get to kind of learn at the same time.
Amanda: Yeah, hopefully, the first of many collabs between us. I definitely want to have you on my show at some point.
Ann: Oh, absolutely. Like, I think you have me earmarked for when my book comes out, we can do some Caroline of Brunswick art talk because there are some paintings with some stories about her that I think will be perfect for your podcast. But yeah, absolutely! You’re welcome back anytime, obviously. And thank you so much for taking the time to record this extremely long episode.
Amanda: Thank you. I had a lot of fun!
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So, I forgot to say last week when we started this journey, this journée, Amanda is that on Patreon, she and I recorded a video, it’s, like, an hour and a half long or something because I knew that she and I had so much that we wanted to talk about and we wanted to really focus this podcast on just Madame du Barry. So, we just had this kiki; we were just talking about the modern British royal family, but also Queen Victoria, and also our respective journeys to becoming content creators. Anyway, you can see that video if you join the Patreon at the $5 or more level, or you can also just, like, you can buy access to it for $5 or honestly, you can just get a free trial on my Patreon, watch the video and then cancel the free trial. Whatever you want to do. I just wanted to let you know that Amanda and I, if you want more of that content, if you want to get some video of the two of us, that’s available at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter.
And so, we’re in this! We’re in Season Seven, Part Two, we’re doing this France thing. And next week, we’re going to be talking about somebody I’m really excited to be talking about on this podcast. It’s, you know what? Like, this is my podcast, and I can decide who I want to talk about, we talk about usually, almost entirely, cis women on the show. We’ve talked about some nonbinary people we’ve talked about. I think we’ve had trans men, we’ve had trans women. Very rarely do we talk about cis men. I think the only other official episode we’ve done featuring a cis man was Christopher Marlowe way back, I think on Allison Epstein’s first episode with us. Next week, we’re going to be talking about another man because this show is, you know, we’re broadening the scope and if somebody is scandalous enough, I need to share the story in the show. And I’m really excited about who we’re talking about next week and I’m really excited about who the guest is. So, I can’t wait for you to hear that all next week.
But in the meantime, I’m Ann Foster, this is Vulgar History. Hepburn is my cat, she is walking across the keyboard of my computer right now, I hope that didn’t affect the recording. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know some things. So, first of all, I mean, we’re in this France portion of the whole saga, I think that there are some episodes that could be worth re-listening to again, just because they have to do with what we’re talking about. Like, for instance, the Chevalière d’Éon, her story really overlaps with a lot of the people who are talking about. There’s also Jeanne de la Motte from The Affair of the Necklace, the very famous and very ugly, arguably, most people find it ugly, some people don’t the necklace, that’s another one you might want to listen to. And I actually just posted on my Substack, which is where I have these newsletters I do every two weeks with just, like, essays, they’re funny essays. I call people a piece of shit and stuff in them. It’s like this podcast. I just posted an essay about Jeanne de la Motte and the Affair of the Necklace because of the whole, you know, because we’re talking about Madame du Barry, because turns out she was involved. Anyway, I do have a Substack. It’s called Vulgar History A La Carte and you can find that at VulgarHistory.Substack.com, and that’s all free. If you wanted to use subscribe to that as well.
I mentioned the Patreon so you can follow me on Patreon for free as well. You know, I post my thoughts and things there. My various travel blogs about my recent journée are all there as well. And so, you can just follow me on Patreon for free, Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. The next level up would be if you pledge at least $1 a month, you get early, ad-free access to all episodes of this show. And if you pledge $5 or more a month, you get access to bonus episodes like this Aftershow that I recorded this video with Amanda Matta, as well as my other Patreon-only spin-off podcast Vulparpiece Theatre, where I talk about costume dramas. And we have done several taking place in France, like, we did The Affair of the Necklace, the movie starring Hilary Swank so that gets into some of these people. We’ve done Chevalier, the movie with the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, Marie Antoinette actually appears in that movie. Anyway, I also do episodes of So This Asshole, where I talk about just gross men from history.
Anyway, and then also if you join at the $5 a month or more level, you get to join our Discord, the “Vulgar History Salon,” which is just like a big chat-based place where, just, members of the Tits Out Brigade can all just share pictures of her pets. And I give sometimes spoilers about what’s coming up. One of the channels there is called the “Flying Squad,” named after Catherine de Medici’s, like, sexy lady spy squadron, where I need help. Anyway, you can join the Discord if you join the Patreon for $5 a month or more.
We also have— And I have exciting news about this too! So, we have our brand partner, Common Era Jewellery, which is a small woman-owned business that makes beautiful heirloom pieces of jewellery out of both gold and then also more affordable gold vermeil. And what is on the jewellery are… Well, they’re all historically inspired. I don’t want to say they all have women’s faces on them, but most of them do. And the women on this jewellery, like she started off, Torie, the owner, she was inspired by women from classical history, classical mythology. There are people we’ve talked about on the show, like Boudica is there, Cleopatra, Agrippina is on there, Anne Boleyn. See, that was the first one where Torie was, like, veering into doing not just classical, like, ancient, ancient history people.
And she’s doing some more interesting people! She just released a new drop, a new design that is Cassandra, who is from the saga of the Trojan War. She’s the one who was always telling the truth, and no one listened to her. And that’s a real… I think a lot of people feel like that these days. And then just, just what came out is a new design that’s Saint Olga of Kiev who was… I haven’t done an episode about her, though it has been requested. And apparently, I guess it’s been one of the reasons why that’s a design for Common Era is because it was requested there too. Saint Olga of Kiev, she was this… What I’ll tell you is that one of the things she did, and I love that she’s a saint because one of the things that I remember best that she did is that she attached something like bombs to pigeons so that birds would fly over her enemies and then explode. It’s quite a saga and she’s a really heroic figure and I think it’s really exciting and great to see that that’s another person being honoured by being part of the Common Era collection.
Anyway, Vulgar History listeners always get 15% off whatever you buy from Common Era by going to CommonEra.com/Vulgar or using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout. And I will also mention the new designs, any of the designs, so if you want to get the vermeil version, which is, like, a bit more affordable, sometimes those are sold out, but you can go on a waitlist and then you’ll get an email to let you know when those are available in that style.
If you want to just show your Vulgar History love, I have merchandise that you can purchase. So, the most recent merchandise that I have is the varsity, the Princess Diana fall look. If you’re wearing the varsity sweatshirt with the bicycle shorts look, it’s a gorgeous design by our friend Karyn Moynihan. It says “Vulgar History: Not being serious about history since 2019,” inspired by a comment left by one of my many haters. Anyway, you can get that or any of the other designs at VulgarHistory.com/Store. That takes you to our TeePublic store, which is great if you live in America, which a lot of you do. And a lot of you don’t live in America and those people I recommend going to the alternate shop, which is our Redbubble shop, which is VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. The shipping is just a bit better there for non-American type people.
And now that we’re getting into the France of it all, the French Revolution of it all, I’m curious to know what people… who you expect to hear and who you want to hear about in this portion of this series. You can get in touch with me about that or whatever by going to VulgarHistory.com and there’s a little button there to send me a message. I’m also on social media at the moment. I feel like every time I do an episode, I’m like, “Well, here’s the social media I’m using now.” But here’s the social media I’m using now, which is I’m on Instagram @VulgarHistoryPod, where my DMs are open so you can message me there as well. I’ve also been having a lot of fun on the Threads. There are so many history-based people on there. It’s a great place I found where I can just ask a question like, “Hey, can anyone recommend a good source of text about, like, contraception in the Georgian era that was not condom-based?” And someone’s like, “Oh, yeah, I wrote my dissertation on it. Here’s the link.” Like, anyway, it’s great. So, I’m there. So, I’m also on Threads @VulgarHistoryPod. And next week, we’re going to do a special man episode and I really think you’re going to enjoy it. I’m really excited for you to hear it. And so, until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out.
Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com.
References:
Madame du Barry: The Wages of Beauty by Joan Haslip
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