Vulgar History Podcast
Queen Marie-Louise Christophe: A Black Regency Era Queen
January 14, 2026
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and this season we are looking at the Regency Era. Today’s topic is Queen Marie-Louise Christophe, who you may or may not have heard of. But I want to just explain for a second about the Regency era because that’s a phrase that not everyone has always heard of, so I want to explain what I’m talking about.
The Regency era, it’s when Bridgerton takes place. I’m recording this and you’re listening to this, just as we’re about to have the new season of Bridgerton is about to come upon us, and I think that timing is actually really perfect for today’s episode because Bridgerton is a romantic show, it’s a fantasy show looking at, sort of, a fantasy version of this Regency era, which is usually considered to be the first part of the 1800s, often based in England. In Bridgerton, the fantasy of it, besides that there’s so many gorgeous people having so much hot sex constantly, I mean, people in the Regency era, some of them were gorgeous, not that many. Anyway, but also in Bridgerton, there is the concept that what if Black people, what if Asian people, what if people of colour were royals? What if they were in the aristocracy? And what if that was, kind of like, no big deal and everyone was chill about it? Which is not what it was like in the actual Regency era. We had an episode a few weeks ago talking about slave owners and things like that.
Here’s the thing. Today, we’re talking about Queen Marie-Louise Christophe, and she was the queen of Haiti. We talked about Haiti in the previous season, where we were looking at the French Revolution, the Haitian Revolution, the American Revolution, this revolutionary period, and we talked then about the Haitian Revolution itself. But those stories we did last season kind of ended when the Revolution took off. What did those people do afterwards? So, we’re going to get into all that in the episode. I don’t want to spoil all of that. But the thing is, in Haiti, for a time, parallel to the Regency era in England, parallel to when Bridgerton was happening, there was a real court where there were Black royalty, where there were Black people who were dukes and duchesses, and they were throwing beautiful balls, and they were wearing all the outfits. This was actually happening.
And who else could have written about it so beautifully except for author Vanessa Riley, who is such a… I love speaking with Vanessa, and I love reading her books because she’s looking at history and she’s finding the real Black people who lived in these situations and their lives, and imagining them, or just filling out what we know from the few facts that we can get together. So, in our conversation about Queen Marie-Louise, Vanessa explains her story, kind of what happened to… She’ll explain what happens during the Haitian Revolution, after, and then once she went into exile; this is why Vanessa’s novel about her is called Queen of Exiles. Marie-Louise was always seen and treated as a queen. It’s such a fascinating story, and I’m really excited to have Vanessa back on to talk about it.
This is a conversation recorded a bit ago when this book first came out. It is available now, it’s still in stores everywhere. You should just get a copy of it; it’s so good. And I invited Vanessa back for a new, kind of, epilogue to this episode because on this podcast, Vulgar History, when we do a biographical episode, usually, we end it with a discussion of how does this person score in four different categories for our Scandaliciousness Scale. I invited Vanessa back so that we could ordain Queen Marie-Louise into that scale as well. At the end of this season, just like on Bridgerton, you – that’s right, you, the listeners – are going to help choose the Diamond of the Season, and it’s going to be like Dancing with the Stars, where there’s the judges’ score, and then there’s the audience’s score. So, Marie-Louise, in order to be a part of this selection process for the diamond of the season, she had to have a score. Vanessa was kind enough to record with me about that. So, stay tuned for this interview with Vanessa Riley and then some bonus content at the end as we talk about and celebrate Marie-Louise Christophe, Queen of Haiti.
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Ann: So, I’m joined today by Vanessa Riley, whose new book is called Queen of Exiles, and I am so excited to talk to you about this book and to talk to you about the main character, who is a real historical figure. I have so many questions for you, but first, I just want to say welcome, Vanessa.
Vanessa: Well, Ann, thank you for having me. And I just can’t wait to talk about Queen of Exiles.
Ann: There’s a couple of things I want to talk about just to sort of ground everybody in the story and the history, because to understand who she is and the significance of her life, we need to talk a bit about the history of Haiti. So, can you sort of set the scene of the world that she was born into?
Vanessa: So, when Marie-Louise Coidavid is born, we’ll just call her Louise. She is in a blended family; she is the daughter of a hotelier owner. So, her father, a free Black man, owned this very exquisite hotel in Saint-Domingue, which is the capital during that time frame. So, you get a lot of Westerners coming in, they called it “the Pearl of the Antilles.” So, she was very used to that lifestyle because her father had catered to them, so his daughters understood that life.
But, you know, Saint-Domingue is a tale of two or three different factions; you have the grand blancs, which are the wealthiest, the wealthy; you have the petits blancs, who want to be grand blancs; then you have free coloureds who are mixed race children of Blancs and enslaved people who are now free; then you have just this wave of enslaved Blacks. So, you have afranchis that could also be free Blacks, but you have also this underbelly of society of enslavement. And everyone but the grand blancs are unhappy. Everybody wants more freedom, everybody wants the ability to move up socioeconomic classes, and this constraint of “I will steal you from the continent of Africa and force you in these camps, and I won’t care about the condition you’re living in,” and how the life expectancy is just cut short for these people.
So, there’s a lot of pain and whatnot, but you have this almost idyllic life in the same place. She is the hotelier’s daughter. Well, a free man comes to the inn one day, his name is Henri Christophe. He’s fought in the American Revolution, and he has ambitions to join the growing rebellions, but he instantly falls in love with this young girl. Family keeps them apart for, like, two years, [laughs] but they end up getting married, and now she’s a soldier’s wife, and the rebellion explodes, all factions of Haiti is burning. And finally, Jean-Jacques Dessalines commands the forces, and he is able to push France away. Henri Christophe is his second in command, and Haiti is now free.
She is now the, you know, being the wife of the general who’s the second in command is a lot of authority. I’ve read about the dinner parties and whatnot that she would hold at her house. But Henri Christophe is an ambitious man, and there’s discontent because Dessalines has now appointed himself as emperor because he’s trying to best Napoleon during this time frame. It’s a time of crisis, and there is discontent because those free coloureds are upset that the Black generals have all the power. The free coloureds have more education. The ones who excelled in combat are with the free Blacks. So, there’s this thing between Haiti where you have coloureds and free Blacks, and they’re fighting, they can’t get along. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is assassinated, and the country splits into two. So, the republic is in the south; the free coloureds are running that. The Black generals, they are running the kingdom in the north, and it eventually becomes a kingdom. Christophe becomes its first king, and his wife is the first queen. And so, I gave you probably too long of an explanation. [laughs]
Ann: No, no, no. It’s necessary. [laughs] It’s a part of history that I knew very little about going into this book. And I mean, I do want to let all the listeners know, like, in the book, you explain this step by step, so everybody knows what you need to know. But just in terms of this conversation and this podcast for people who haven’t read the book yet, the history of Haiti, it’s so interesting. I didn’t know any of these details until I read the book.
So, we’ve got this woman who met this guy at her family hotel. And now, suddenly, she’s the queen of Haiti. Can you talk about what that era was like for her, being the queen? He built a palace, Sans-Souci, and they’re hosting balls. It’s this elegant, glamorous time.
Vanessa: I’ve written her as a reluctant queen because she was content being a soldier’s wife. Then she had to become content being a general’s wife. Then she had to become content being the president’s wife. And now, he wants her to be a queen because Christophe believes that France is going to come back. His overarching thing is France is going to come back, and if Haiti does not have friends in Europe, in America, that will always be the way; France is going to come back, and no one will stop them. So, he decides that, “I look at the English court, I look at the Prussian court, I look at the Italian court. Everybody understands these peerages. We’re going to create that in Haiti.” So, we’re going to have “I’ll be the king. You will be the queen. We’ll create dukes or comtes and ducals. We’ll match the European aristocracy because if they see us as their peers, they will see us as human, and then they will understand why we need to be free and never under France’s yoke.”
In doing so, you know, women for the revolution were a huge part. The African identity was a huge part. And so, there is a battle now. What got us to be free? Women acting, women carrying the battle cries, the way of African battle movement and tracking. And now, you want women to go back to just being pretty faces in beautiful gowns, and you want to divorce yourself from this African identity to accept this European identity because you believe that is the way. And Louise, the practical woman, is trying to balance because she does see he is right, we need to have friends in the outside world. But at the same time, we cannot forget who we are; we cannot forget our identity. And so, there’s a battle that goes on.
The funny thing is, their kingdom is set exactly to the Regency. So, everybody is familiar with the Regency times. That’s the world they are trying to fit in, having this kingdom. It is a struggle, and there are successes in the kingdom that you find out. Like, you know, it blew my mind that they had immunizations. You could literally go into schools, and these children who once were picking in the fields, the sugarcane, are now learning French and English in the classrooms because he understood, “Our people have to be educated. We’ve got to be able to match the peers of the world.” He was bringing in scientists from America, from all over Europe. Just the lavishness! I mean, he’s buying things from the best furniture makers in Germany. Also, you know, the milliners in London. The jewels! It’s all of these things because he’s mimicking European society and the things that he believes that they value, and so when they come to visit, they will see it, they will identify with it, and then we can all fit in, and we will have support in the world.
So, it’s a fraught experience, and as a woman who understands the needs of that, but also understands where the people are and how far his vision is so far ahead of where they need to be and that the problems… She’s trying to right the ship, but it’s sometimes it’s just a bigger task than you are able to do.
Ann: And then can you explain where… You’re describing all the things he was purchasing, all the things that he was doing to make everything look similar to England and other royal courts like that. Where is the money coming from? It’s sugar exports, right?
Vanessa: Yes. When Dessalines is emperor, he begins to rebuild the economy because, you know, war has trashed the economy, the burning of the buildings, the burning of the fields. So, people are given land, and they have to farm this land, and they give a portion of this land to the government, so they give a portion to Henri. Well, Henri is selling this to the world. So, when the money comes in, there’s fees, there’s transfer fees, and that’s going into his pocket, into his collection, and the rest goes into Haiti.
So, there’s literally, there’s points where they have to his ministers come to him, like, “Hey, man, we’re going to split this up so that everybody knows what is the country’s, what is yours.” But at one point, he actually has more cash on hand than the King of England. They are wealthy in property, lands, and jewels, but if you’re talking about cold, hard cash, [scoffs] Henri actually has more, because the lust for sugar did not stop with Haiti becoming free. It is still the drug of choice of all over the world, and the imports are within— I forget the metrics, but within a couple of years, they were exporting a great deal of sugar to the world.
Ann: And I really wanted to understand where the money was coming from, because that becomes such a major plot point. It’s funny talking to you about this book, you know, people listening who haven’t read the book yet, the book is not told in chronological order. You kind of see some of this, the time period you’re talking about when Henri is so ambitious, and she’s being the queen, and then you’re also seeing earlier, and you’re also seeing later. So, I think we can jump around her life a bit, and it’s not going to spoil the book for people. But she ends up in Europe, basically, and there’s a question of how is she going to support herself? It turns out that there is a substantial amount of money she’s able to have, right?
Vanessa: Yes, yes. And it was interesting rebuilding all of that, because to me, it was always a disconnect. When people talk about Louise, I always hear “poor and sorrowful,” always attached to her name. She came to my attention, one, because of the research I’d done for my previous book, but they were putting a plaque on a house in Mayfair saying that “Marie-Louise lived here.” Mayfair is one of the most expensive parts of London. And then, another house in Hastings, on the seacoast. I actually was able to walk in this house and look at the view from her living room. It is amazing! These are expensive cottages.
Now, am I to believe that the goodness and mercy of the English society is going to take a poor, exiled Black woman, and put her up in all of these wonderful, exquisite, luxurious locations? Or does it make more sense that she actually has access to money? When you look at that financing, Henri has banks that he’s dealing with in America, he has banks that he’s dealing with in London. When he dies unexpectedly, they’re still holding on to large portions of that money. In my opinion, that’s what she draws on, she utilized. She retains the same people; they are able to make settlements with all of these banks, and that is what she has to live on. They do extensive travel all across Europe, and the properties that she owned or leased are immaculate. You cannot do that if you have no access to money.
So, she was able to rebuild. She didn’t have it at first because, you know, we see her living in hotels, we see her living on the kindness of some of the abolitionists that were working with the kingdom at first. But then, when she comes into her own, it’s significant, and she’s able to live well, and she’s able to make sure her daughters, who came with her, have the princess experience, so to speak, that they are treated like royals, which they were.
Ann: And you mentioned, you know, it’s happening over the 19th century, so starting off in kind of the what we think of, what I think of, as Regency England, you know, when I think about that time period, that’s the most famous country at that time. And then, getting later into the 19th century, and she’s— You have in your book, you include, I think you say there are actual news clippings of stories about things. She was so well-known and so famous at the time, like, as just this wealthy queen in exile, travelling around Europe. It blows my mind! I’ve never heard of her before. I didn’t know any of this. Right?
Vanessa: This completely blew my mind. And at one point, I was suckered into this, “Okay, well, maybe she had some money, but maybe she wasn’t accepted in society.” And then, I start doing this research, and I find these news clippings, and she was very well received in society. Marriage proposals, you know, you have your fortune hunter chasings as well, and people pretending at different points that they are related so they could get part of this money that she has. So, the fact that people know she has money and they’re curious, what is this woman doing? What is how does she appear? Where is she going?
The best example of how far she climbed and how far she was held in status was there was a huge opera opening, and I believe it was David Copperfield is cataloging this for his memoirs, his travel memoirs or whatnot. And he talks about the King of Prussia being seated in the front row, and the King of Westphalia seated in the front row, and then you have Madame Christophe and her daughters, and then you have the Prince of Prussia— Front row. Front section; not hiding in the corner. Sitting next to, literally, enemies of her husband, because these are the brothers of Napoleon, sitting in that front row with her and her daughters.
So, that’s the level she climbed— Money, I believe, in history has always trumped race. So, all of our expectations that we get post-Victorian sanctification and ripping away of different legacies, this is not there. This is before all of this. This is where everything is. And so, the newspapers literally tell you the story that everywhere she went, people are following her, taking— You know, not necessarily taking pictures, but they are recording what she’s doing, where she’s going, who she’s meeting with.
Her papers, during I think the First World War, maybe in the Second, but her papers were bombed and destroyed. I would have loved to get my hands, to get a deeper dive into what she was thinking was going on, because she saw, you know, all of her enemies die. They all died in Haiti or when they went abroad, everybody that came against her. She’s literally, in my opinion, a living legacy of the achievement of that society. And she lived her life as a queen, and I think we do such a disservice where we rationalize in our heads what we think has happened in history, as opposed to what has actually happened in history.
Ann: When you were discovering these newspaper articles and, like, that detail you just gave about her sitting front row. I mean, what were you thinking? Because you went into this, I would imagine, not knowing any of these details, and then just detail after detail, explaining that she was this— She was literally a queen. She was a queen like any other queen; she was travelling around; she was wealthy, she was respected. What was it like to discover these details?
Vanessa: It blew my mind! Because I had bought into… You know, it still stopped making sense, right? I had bought into the lie that this Black woman is there with her daughters, she’s poor, she’s ostracized from society. And I wasn’t looking for a story of sadness, so I was desperate to find some hope, something to show that, you know, though there is suffering in her life, that is not her life. And then we go into it, and newspaper after newspaper, talking about her jewels, talking about her going here, going to different spas. I mean, it’s just enormous how well documented Queen Louise is and her travels in Europe. And yet, none of that remains in our present psyche; we go back to poor, sorrowful because the kingdom fell. She was part of that kingdom. That is not that woman; this woman is so much more than the kingdom.
And in my opinion, everything that Henri wanted to achieve, this acceptance, she got it when she was in Europe. She was a queen, recognized as a queen. So, you know, to me, we do a disservice when we don’t look at the facts, when we just assume based on systemic racism that this is the way this woman is going to be treated. We make all these assumptions, and we are literally putting her in a box that she was never in, she overcame. I’m not saying her life was easy by any stretch of the imagination; a lesser woman might have been broken and whatnot. She kept her dignity, and she marched through life with her head up, not down. So, she had joy in the midst of sorrows. She found victory where people wanted her to be defeated. She’s a woman we need to know.
Ann: Absolutely! That’s part of… Just reading this book, and then… I love that you put in the newspaper articles because that really is like, this is true. This is real, this is what happened. Because I kept reading this, and I was like, how could this be true, and I’ve never heard anything about any of this? And you just explained…
Vanessa: That’s why I love the fact that they let me put the newspaper clippings in, because you’ve got to see it! Sometimes with historical fiction, you don’t know what’s true, what’s not, you know, where is the author’s imagination? I mean, it is fiction, right? Because I wasn’t privy to these conversations. You do do approximation of like, if I’m living in the sphere, I’m in the palace, these are the possible conversations I’m going to have. But when you see, in black and white, these newspaper articles, I mean, truth is stranger than fiction. And I was like, I’m going to have to put this in just so y’all will understand: This is true! This is real! This is happening!
Ann: No, exactly. That was exactly my experience when I was reading it. I was just thinking, there’s a part in the book where she… There’s another suitor who comes on the scene. And I was like, okay. Well, you know, Vanessa’s probably imagining that, she’s probably making this part— No! No. The newspapers are like “These two people were seen together. There are rumours that he had proposed to her.” I’m like, oh! Okay. [laughs] No, that’s also drawn from history.
Vanessa: Prince Pückler is another guy who’s famous for being a writer, but before that, he was looking for a rich wife, he was looking for a rich wife, number two. But he never actually marries again after meeting Louise. So, there’s a change that happens. He still loves women because they’re there are women before and after Louise, he loves women. But that whole motivation to find a rich wife, to marry, changes after he meets her. So, there’s something special there, and I think also her full healing from the tragedies of what happened with Henri, et cetera, and just, she’s still a woman, even though she’s queen.
Ann: This is, honestly, like, even talking to you right now, I’m just like, I can’t believe that this is a real person from history and no one’s ever really written about her before!
Vanessa: Originally, I started to buy in until things the math was not mathing, and I’m like, something is wrong here! So, I expanded my search, particularly because originally, I was trying to find more meetings within the British aristocracy. But when I started looking at the whole of Europe because she travels, that’s where you find all these other very interesting connections and meetings and the life that she lived. She was very European in her travels, in where she lived.
So, with Queen of Exiles, I wanted to give you a taste of all of this that this woman has done that we should really know about. That’s the other disservice! We’ve done a disservice to ourselves by not knowing about this woman. Or even looking at Haiti in today’s lens as this as a society that’s a struggle, as opposed to what it was and what it could have been if countries had stepped up and done the right thing and kept France from coming back.
Ann: I think it’s in the postscript, like, the epilogue of the book, you mentioned just briefly – and we don’t need to get into it a lot – but you do a comparison to Bridgerton, you know, the thought of having Black people at these elegant balls, having these titles and stuff. And you say, like, that’s what was happening in Haiti. That comparison just really sat with me because, you know, there’s been all these discussions about Bridgerton and with Queen Charlotte and stuff, and just what does it mean that that show – which presents a fantasy world, a fantasy version of England where Black people are in the aristocracy – and you’re saying, well, in Haiti, that was what was happening.
Vanessa: Exactly. I love Bridgerton because there’s something magical about seeing this diverse cast and seeing love is love on the big screen, right? It’s incredibly magical; it’s escapism. And the fabrics and the beauty, but that’s fantasy. They take bits of truth and, like, some of the— You know, the fashions aren’t even— If you want to be a stickler, the fashions aren’t exactly Regency-esque. But that’s not why we go to Bridgerton; we go for pure enjoyment, we want to watch the story evolve, we want to root for our people.
But when we look at history, there are people to root for, there are stories to be told, and Haiti is a special place. What they had for the exact same nine years as the Regency, from 1811 to 1820, was magical. They achieved such heights. This was a society of promise, and all the lovely intrigue and court life that you love in Bridgerton, it was happening over here in Haiti! [laughs] With the same levels of opulence and the crazies and the balls, and they were bringing opera troops. I mean, it’s just, when you read it, and you realize the culture aspect that was happening, it just blows your mind. To me, I constantly was, like, mouth open, and I’m like, nobody’s going to believe this. [laughs] Like I said, that’s one of the reasons I highly document things. I’m like, y’all don’t believe me? You go look at the bibliography. You look at it, there’s a newspaper clip; make of it what you will. I don’t know how we do it, but somehow, we’re going to have to evolve where the facts matter, and we can’t just write things off or close our minds to things because we assume it would have to be this way, particularly on the acceptance of a royal woman coming from the Haitian court.
You know, one of my favourite anecdotes was Prince Saunders, who was an American, went to England, and actually had breakfast with the Prince Regent because his name was Prince. Richard and his people didn’t realize that Prince Saunders, Prince was his first name [Ann laughs] and not an honorific. But once again, if you come and you have titles and you have money, you are accepted into the fold. Now, it doesn’t mean you’re exempt from scandal. They’re looking for scandal, you know, they’re waiting for you to do something. It doesn’t mean you’re exempt from scandal, but there’s a level of acceptance that money has bought.
So, this is a thing that I don’t think people really realize, and then the whole history of Haiti, it was amazing. To me, it always asked that question: What if? What if they’d gotten a little more support? Because Henri had actually achieved that. Russia and England had stepped in and forstole France from coming back in 1818 and 1819, but then he dies in 1820, and five years after he dies, France comes back demanding repayment for the losses of the war.
Ann: I don’t know if you know the musical Camelot, or even just the concept of Camelot, but you know, there’s that song that they sing that it’s like, “For one brief shining moment, there was this amazing thing,” and that’s the way you’re describing Haiti and the way it’s in the book. And that’s another thing I appreciate about the way you wrote the book, which is not in chronological order. So, in the scenes that are set during that sort of glory time, when the kingdom was thriving, like, you’re sitting there in that moment, and there’s not a sense of— You’re right there; it’s live, it’s happening. You’re not thinking like, “Oh, it was a short period of time. Things got bad afterwards.” You can sit there and, like, it felt to me similar to reading Regency England; it’s just princes and princesses, and you know, who’s going to marry who, and all this courtly intrigue. The people in it didn’t know it was going to end so soon, so they were just living like this was going to go on forever.
Vanessa: Exactly. As one would, right? [laughs]
Ann: Yeah! Yeah.
Vanessa: Because, you know, the sugar money is still coming in, it’s still funding this lifestyle. And they are getting on with it, they’re alive. So, you know, they’re still rebuilding pieces of Haiti because of, you know, the years of war. They have these moments of very high culture that, to me, is exciting, and it’s a discovery that I wanted to share and bring you in. You’re right, I wrote it so you don’t feel that dread, looking at the clock like, “Oh, only five more years. Oh, only three more.” No. I wanted you to be there and to see the problems that they had within the kingdom, and then when you jump back, you see the problems outside of the kingdom.
Ann: I did want to also mention… So, two other important characters in the book are her two daughters, who leave Haiti with her, who are with her in exile. Can you just talk about their stories and how you learned about them and which details you included in the book?
Vanessa: So, she has two daughters who flee with her. The younger daughter is of a sickly nature; she’s very curious about the world, very supportive of her mom. The older daughter was, I would say, the beautiful one in Haiti; she was getting the acclaim within her father’s construct, she’s a princess royal. And now, you come to England, and you want to have that social life. This is before they’re able to really reclaim their money, and so they’re only put in the little boxes here. But the world begins to slowly, as the money starts being recovered, beginning to expand. You know, they’re going to parties and balls, and they’re wearing these expensive gowns and whatnot. They’re fitting in! Or so they think they’re fitting in, in England, because, you know, these are very old peerages, peerages older than your peerage. That begins to be at play.
And then that whole identity of, what is beauty? What is the standard of beauty? In that particular time frame, a healthy blonde girl is the ultimate. It wasn’t these little, skinny things that we see around nowadays. [laughs] Healthy girl, because you can bear some babies! That was the standard of beauty. Black is not on the scale. It’s not that people didn’t find Black beautiful; there’s always been an appetite for Black bodies. But this is something that’s being wrestled with.
So, as a mother, how do you give the world to your kids? How do you give society? And then, when she gets rejected because of who she is, how do you deal with that? And then, there’s always that, you know, like the Moses looking back with people, like, “We had bread back in Egypt. Maybe we should go back because people thought I was beautiful and I fit in back in my Haitian world.” And it’s like, go back to what? They’re killing anybody associated with us. And if you marry somebody with political intentions, your husband and your children will also be at risk because they’re fearful that the Christophe line will reign again. There is no future for you in Haiti, not as it is. How do you deal with that?
So, when they finally begin to travel, the world opens up more than when they were in England, and in the European stage, because now they have full access to the money, and they can go to the various places, it is back to peerages matter more than race and standards of beauty. People see beauty in people at this point. And so, that is showcased in these daughters.
But at the same time, how does a mother who’s dealt with tragedy, knowing that her youngest daughter is sickly and that one day she may not be able to breathe, she may not wake up, how do you give her enough of this new life so that you feel like you’ve done everything for her to? It’s tricky. It’s another balance; she’s back to being in a balancing act. How do I show the proper amount of attention to each daughter? I love both of my daughters. But because of their needs, they take different parts of me, they require different amounts of time. How do I balance that? While, at the same time, I know the world is looking in, waiting for me to stumble.
Ann: And I thought it was so interesting too, the way that you describe, because the two girls, they grew up during this time of affluence in Haiti. So, they grew up as princesses, which is such a different childhood from what their mother lived. So, she’s trying to understand their understanding of the world. It’s just a really interesting balance, but again, and I think you mentioned this a couple of times in the book, there’s some parts where the main character herself is thinking about, you know, what does it mean to be Black and to be royal, and to present a role model to these girls who don’t have anyone else to look up to, who is that? What does that mean? And there is a part in the book where, I forget the name of it, but it’s a book that was written in that time period about… [chuckles]
Vanessa: Yes! Yes, yes, yes. By Claire… I don’t remember the name either.
Ann: Ourika.
Vanessa: Yes, yes, Ourika. I’m afraid of mispronouncing it; I’m very southern in my pronunciation. So, yeah, that is that’s a true book, and the connection is the Viscount who befriends Madame Christophe. That book, to me, is one of the most horrible books, but it’s… What’s the nice way to put this? These are the kind of books that have been acceptable in publication for a long time. I call it the pain, porn, quantity. Right? So, you give enough Black tragedy and Black pain, and that’s a winner right there, because it just gets to the audience, and people get to feel sorry about things they didn’t do, and just… [laughs]
And it’s written by someone who doesn’t understand the beauty of Black skin, who doesn’t understand the journey or the walk when you are Black, trying to write a Black person, and coming up with “It must be sorrowful.” It must be “You don’t want to be Black. You want to be anything other than Black.” And then, the descriptions of this book about a devil and all the different stereotypes that have been characterized throughout the years of a Black existence, you find it in this book, and this book becomes, like, a number one seller in France.
It’s horrible, but to me, it’s just another flash point of showing what they have to do to exist. To go back to— Even Henri’s perspective of, “We have to show the world this so that they know this is what Blacks can achieve. So, they know that they can be comfortable around us because we’re just like everybody else.” And you get this book published in that same time frame, and they would have access to it. To me, I had to put it in because it’s a capstone. It’s a stake in the ground of, “This is what the world potentially could be thinking of you and your daughters and why we think you’re going to fail, and why I can’t fail as Queen Louise. I have to make sure I succeed. I have to make sure my daughter succeed so that we don’t become Ourika.”
Ann: Yeah. Just the moment where, I forget, it’s one of the daughters, but they’d been raised as princesses, you know, surrounded in a place with Black nobles and aristocracy, and then she reads this book, and she’s like, “Oh my god, this is…” She didn’t realize that that’s how she is seen by other people, and it’s a sort of major moment for her. But then, you also say in your afterword of the book, and you mentioned earlier in the interview as well, that you didn’t want to write a book about tragedy and pain; you wanted to find a story of hope. So, I thought that that was an interesting parallel that in the book— It’s a way that you can mention in the book, you know, that both your characters feel this way, and you obviously feel this way. Why do Black stories always have to be stories of grief and misery and pain? Why can’t it be a story of triumph and hope? And that’s what this book is! You’ve written so many books, all of them historical, I think, and that’s very much what you’re doing in all of your books.
Vanessa: Exactly. Shhh! No one’s figured that out yet. [both laugh] The little rebel, Vanessa. But yeah, there is so much to the existence that is more than just pain; there are moments of joy. Even if you are suffering, you’re in a bad situation, you can still find moments in the day to smile, certain things will make you happy. You hang on to joy much more fiercely when you know sorrow, and I see that’s what these people did. You know, Queen Louise, she lost a lot, and then had to leave her homeland in order to make sure that her daughters were safe and that they could have a safe future. That is a great burden to put on someone. But I cannot see how you can go to every spa city in Europe and be unhappy. I’m like, come on now! [laughs]
So, they found moments of joy. I’m convinced that they found moments of joy. The fact that they still took to the opera… Because if they stewed in their depression or really were consumed with how much we lost as opposed to what we have, they wouldn’t go to opera. They wouldn’t be concerned about what they wore. They wouldn’t go to these various places and follow the royal tours like they did if they were worried about all of the pain that they had suffered. They were trying to make their futures; they were trying to move forward, and to me, that is what this book should show: how they move forward.
Ann: Again, for me, my experience reading this book was absolutely that. That sense of just sort of a very strong woman who faces all these challenges, but she’s got this indomitable spirit about her, so she just keeps going forward. But part of me, reading the book, was also just like, how did I not know any of this? How have I never heard of her? [laughs] So, it’s both. It’s both.
Vanessa: You know, unfortunately, sometimes these gems are hidden, and the pain stories are the ones that we all know. You know, I was one of those kids that was glued to the TV when Roots came on. Roots is a very important story, but it’s not the only story. But it seems like since that was successful, that told everybody in the world, “Oh, these are the kind of stories that everybody wants to see!” We want to see some of those stories because it’s important to remember, but we also want to see the heroes and the revolutionists. We want to see the people who just made discoveries, the inventors, the business people, the politicians, people who changed the world. We want to see that, too. And we want to see people who fell in love and had nice lives, you know? That weren’t always characterized by suffering and misery. We want to see the full gamut perspective. Everybody is owed a full gamut of identity. We’re everything; we can be warriors, we can be martyrs, we can be lovers, we can be on the picket lines. We can be everything. Everybody’s owed a full humanity, and sometimes that has been lacking.
Ann: When I think also, again, the fact that you put the newspaper headings in, which is a detail I love, but to really confirm for people who are reading this, like, this is a real person, this is how she moved through the world, this is how she was seen. Because a flip side of this is, sort of, when people do start putting Black people back into historical films, there’s that pushback being like, “Oh, that’s not accurate. Oh, there wasn’t…” Whatever. “There wasn’t Black people in ancient Egypt. There wasn’t Black people in the Roman Empire,” or whatever, where it’s like, uhhh, what are you talking about? So, a book like this, it proves, you know [laughs] Black people weren’t only enslaved for all of history. Here’s evidence. And I love that your book is like, every single chapter starts with like, proof, proof, proof. You’re not making this up. So, hopefully, it could open people’s minds when they see other stories that are not just all white people, to show that.
Vanessa: Exactly. I know I’m breaking ground in a lot of these stories. And so, I go to the nth degree, the full-on, you know, dissertation in the back of the book, plus bibliography and whatnot. This was a new level of putting the actual newspaper clippings in the story. Writers shouldn’t have to go to that to tell these stories, shouldn’t have to go to those links. I don’t mind going to it because I know it’s going to add to the enjoyment and discovery for my readers. But that shouldn’t have to be the level that someone needs to do in order to make sure everybody understands this is really based on a true story. This really happened to this woman and her daughters and her family.
But, you know, hopefully, you guys will go out, and you get this book, and you’ll read it, and you’ll tell your friends about it, and you’ll tell more friends, because when these types of books come into the mainstream, it opens the door for more books. It makes the job of historical fiction writers easier, it makes everything more accessible, and everybody’s story gets to get told.
Ann: That’s what I really hope for this. Like, you’re saying you’re breaking new ground. Listeners: the bibliography, there’s pages and pages and pages! Like, although it is an academic nonfiction book, like, you’ve got all of your facts straight. But hopefully, exactly, as figures like this become more known, then more people can write about them in different ways, and the next person who writes about her won’t have to prove as much because maybe the story will be better— More people will know it a bit already.
Vanessa: Exactly. Exactly! Or even some of these new figures. You know, there’s so many people who need their stories told, who need to be brought back into our consciousness, and if this can open more doors, because we need the whole story, we need everybody, and everyone’s story is important. So, we need all of it, and you know, we shouldn’t be afraid of letting these stories be told.
Ann: So, this episode is coming out just the same week that your book is being published. So, can you tell people… I assume you’re going to be doing events. You’re going to be where can people keep up with where they can find you and that sort of thing?
Vanessa: My website, VanessaRiley.com, has all the events listed. If you’re on social media, my Instagram, my Linktree has all the events linked, so you can go because we’ve got some fabulous events, everything from lunch at Foxtale’s, and all of the venues, you can order books, I will sign them, personalize them for you, and they ship— Everybody does everything all over the country. So, it’s going to be great. But yeah, VanessaRiley.com or my Instagram, I have the most up-to-date of what’s going on, follow me there. It’s going to be fun. I should get my newsletter. I might have even more tea in the newsletter.
Ann: Fabulous. I love that there’s a way— Yeah, I love that just in this era, there’s a real way for readers to connect with authors and see what they’re up to and to follow you.
Vanessa: And I’m going to be in Columbus, I’m going to be in New York, I’m going to be in Aiken, South Carolina, I’m going to be all over Atlanta. So, there’s a number of venues to catch me or order books, it’s going to be great. But check my website out, that’s the mothership of all.
Ann: Perfect. Well, thank you so, so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It was… Sometimes when I read a book, I’m just so thankful I have this podcast, so I have a reason that I can talk to the author and ask questions and learn more, but also just to let you know how much I enjoyed the book and how much I appreciate what you do. So, thank you.
Vanessa: Oh, thank you. And thank you for having me! And have me back, I’ll probably have more books. [both laugh]
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Ann: So, we’re joined by Vanessa Riley, who you just heard talking about her book, Queen of Exiles, and she’s back. She’s back. It’s like, a year or two later, and I just wanted to check in with you. Actually, what we’re going to do is we’re going to go through Queen Marie-Louise and just give her some scores in a few categories.
But first, I want to ask you, because when we talked about this book last, the book was just coming out. What was the response like when you were touring around and talking to people about the story?
Vanessa: They had never heard of her story. A lot of people were shocked at the level of opulence, the level of culture, the scale of movement that this woman had. Many people were like “Bridgerton!” And, you know, Queen Charlotte, and that is exciting. You have this real queen who is every bit of her skin colour. She is Black. She’s a Black, beautiful queen who was loved by her husband, but the kingdom has fallen, and she’s got to reinvent herself for the third time in her life. She’s got two princesses that she must make sure are healthy and happy, because, in her mind, that’s the only way to honour her husband. So, you know, they’re shocked that this story was always there.
For me, this was one of those— You love research. The news articles on this woman are insane. Insane! They’re tracking her everywhere she’s going, who she’s with, what she’s wearing. To me, she’s probably the first media stock royal, hands down. But yet, many modern historians forgot to look at this record and just assume because she was Black that she must be poor, and she must be ostracized. The only thing they get right is she was Black.
She was not poor; she rebuilt Henri’s fortune because there are too many little blue plaques in London that says she and her daughters lived here; they owned this property here that’s very close to Mayfair; they owned this property in Hastings, which is up on the seacoast. I mean, it’s gorgeous. I actually got to go in that house and touch the banister, because everything was period restored, touch the banister that her hand, sliding up and down, walking the steps, the bounce in the pine boards. Girl, it was amazing! It’s amazing to be there. And you could feel her. You could feel it. It was one of the most gorgeous houses restored, and I could picture her going into her garden in the mornings, the sea air coming in, or just walking the path behind her townhouse and just seeing the sea. I think it is absolutely amazing.
So, there was a lot of, “Gee! I didn’t know. Why didn’t I know?” And just love of this woman who found her way onto the world stage and claimed it for the every ounce of her life.
Ann: So, you’re joining me again so we can go through and so we can sort of induct her into, like, the hall of fame for this podcast. So, there’s four categories, and I sent them to you in advance. Everything is a score from 0 to 10, so you know, the highest possible score is a 40.
The first category is Scandalousness. How scandalous did people find her in her time and place?
Vanessa: Okay, this is very subjective, so I’m going to go with an 8. Because she did scandalous things that would be considered scandalous, like wearing pants on a horse to lead a parade – or practicing, she never actually got to do the parade – but practicing to lead a parade. That’s scandalous. You know, having an affair with the prince, you know, in Germany, that might have been scandalous. But I’m not sure the scandals got out, so because it didn’t actually get out, we’re going to go with an 8, because it still takes some cajones to do all that. [laughs]
Ann: Absolutely fair, especially I mean, for a woman in that time, for a Black woman in that time, I think, yeah, absolutely.
Vanessa: People were looking for her to falter and to be scandalous so they could run an article in in in the London Morning Post. They wanted her to be scandalous. They wanted her to be caught. So, to do all these things, knowing that, yeah, girl, you get an 8 on that one.
Ann: Absolutely. The next category is Schemieness. It’s sort of like, how much was she able to come up with a plan? To execute the plan? How much was she thinking, like, 10 steps ahead? And I think this is also a pretty high score for her because she made it out, she kept going, she was able to travel. So, what do you think for this one?
Vanessa: As you phrase it now— Because I was actually going to go low on that. But now, the way you phrased it, I would say a 9 because she figured things out, she put the teams together, she kept the friends who her husband made, and then she made more. She was very diplomatic, very cultured. You know, people who would, especially some of the French diplomats, Haiti is not a happy place for France at this moment in time, when she’s meeting them, because of the defeat. For her to be able to navigate that plane and keep those connections and build upon friendships… Oh, man! She was thinking. That was 4D chess. In my version of the Queen, she never disrespected her people, the place she came from, she was very proud, but she understood what she was working with. So, you’ve got to play 4D chess in order to do that.
Ann: I think just the fact that she survived as well as she did, I agree. I think a 9 is very fair for her, for Schemieness. The next category, and I feel like you’re going to go high, and I would too, is Significance, like, her historical significance.
Vanessa: 10!
Ann: [laughs] I thought so.
Vanessa: Yeah. I mean, it’s a shame we don’t know her. You know, my earliest references for her was in Thomas Madiou, the French— He’s telling the history of Haiti, and she’s a background player in that, just a simple name. But the fact is, even background player, her name is there. She’s a woman of consequence, she is a woman of culture, she was a woman fighting for her children and the rights of this dream of what Haiti could be. So, yes, we need to know her name.
Ann: Absolutely.
Vanessa: That’s a 10.
Ann: It’s a 10. And I think in her time, like you were saying, she’s in all these newspapers and stuff, like, she’s an incredibly famous person at that time, too.
Vanessa: Which makes you wonder, like, what happened?
Ann: Yeah. [both laugh] Exactly. It’s so funny when— In my research too, when you go back to see, like you found with her, there’s so many newspaper articles, everybody was talking about her, and then suddenly, it’s just like, everyone forgot she ever existed. Like, what? How? So, that’s why it’s so good you’re bringing her back.
And then, the final category is, we call it the Sexism Bonus. It’s just imagining how many extra points can we give this person, because what more could they have achieved if they weren’t living in this patriarchal world?
Vanessa: That would be a 10. I think she was much more diplomatic than her husband, but everybody deferred at that point— Even her husband, there was a level of sexism, of controlling her role, of not listening to her until it’s almost too late, that I think, had he listened, that that kingdom may have lasted, and we would see a different Haiti.
Ann: Exactly. It’s so frustrating when you see somebody like that in history, where it’s like, if you just listened to this one person, everything…
Vanessa: Exactly.
Ann: Yeah. What this gives her is her score is a 37 out of 40, which puts her in the top ten of all time on this podcast. So, congratulations and well deserved.
Vanessa: Thank you, thank you.
Ann: Do you know Njinga, the queen from Ndongo and Matamba?
Vanessa: Yeah!
Ann: She’s up there, too. She’s got a 37 as well. That’s the company she’s keeping on this scale.
Vanessa: I love it.
Ann: Warrior Queens together. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me again, and thank you for revisiting Queen Marie-Louise. I think she’s such an important person, and I think the episodes that we’re doing right now about the Regency period and stuff, like she’s there, wheeling and dealing with all these people we’re talking about. So, I just want to make sure everybody remembers her name.
Vanessa: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Ann.
—————
So, Queen of Exiles by Vanessa Riley, you can pick it up wherever. I first interviewed her, I think it was 2023, when the book first came out. It’s not been out for a while, it’s still in print. Like, get it from your local bookstore, order it from wherever you get your books. It’s so good, and Vanessa’s new book, which we were talking about on the podcast last week, Fire Sword and Sea, which is a biography of another bad ass Caribbean Black woman, Jacquotte Delahaye, who is a pirate, you should read that, too. Just honestly, go to VanessaRiley.com, look up and learn about all of her books and then an order some copies. She’s got links all over the place on her website.
You know who else got a website, a book with links… A website with links to books? That’s me! So, I, Ann Foster, have also written a book. It comes out next month. It is a nonfiction. It’s a funny, feminist, nonfiction book; it opens with a quote from RuPaul’s Drag Race, there’s a drinking game in the book. It’s called Rebel of the Regency: The Scandalous Saga of Caroline of Brunswick, Britain’s Uncrowned Queen. And I don’t think their paths necessarily crossed, but I think Caroline and Queen Marie-Louise would have had a nice time together. I think they were both revolutionary for the time, and I think they both… They would have had a nice time together, I think.
Anyway, so my book, Rebel of the Regency, it’s being published on February 10th. You can currently preorder it in Canada, the United States, the UK, Australia, and I think if you live in places near those places, you can probably order them as well. I’m pretty sure if you live in New Zealand, you can order this book as well from an Australian bookshop. I feel like you probably do that, New Zealanders, order from Australia? And I feel like, I suspect if you’re in Ireland, you can probably order it from UK bookshops as well.
Anyway, you can get information about my book, as well as all the links to preorder it at RebelOfTheRegency.com. And I’m going to have, as we’re getting closer to that date of my book being published, I’ll have more information about what’s going on. But I do want to say that if you do preorder the book before it comes out, first of all, what that means is that on February 10th, the book is going to show up at your house. I can’t guarantee, but hopefully it will, depending on how mail delivery is. But it’ll just arrive for you, and there it is, a happy treat. Or if you order it, preorder it from a local bookstore, you can just go to that store, pick it up. The benefit of preordering it rather than just going to the store and buying it is that when you preorder it and send me the receipt, then I will give you some treats, including a Caroline of Brunswick paper doll, including a free one-year membership to my Patreon, a free one-year membership to my Substack. These are some treats you can get.
And I will be telling you, as they come up, about various events I’m going to be doing. But I will let you know that I’m going to be having a book launch on Friday, February 13th. The book launch in person, it’s going to be here in the city where I live, in Saskatoon in Canada. So, if you’re here, stop at McNally Robinson Bookstore Friday, February 13th at 7:00 p.m. If you’re not here, which I think some people listening don’t live in Saskatoon, you can take part as well, because it’s going to be live-streamed on YouTube. There’s going to be people there monitoring the chat, so you can watch it live, you can send your questions via chat. I’m really happy that I’m able to do this launch. So, everybody, no matter where you are in the world, if you have an internet connection, you can take part in it. And I’m so excited! Friday, February 13th, is my internationale online book launch, and the link to that are in the show notes of this very podcast right here.
Next week, we’re sticking with this Regency era theme. I will just give you… It’s not a spoiler. It’s just, like, a teaser for what’s up next week, but I will say there’s been more sapphic energy this series than any other before, I think. And next week, Harold, there are more lesbians. Like, let’s go, lesbians. It’s a rumoured lesbian scenario next week. So, stay tuned, and until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out.
Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Ann Foster. Editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. Regency Era artwork by Karyn Moynihan. Social media videos by Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at VulgarHistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get early, ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. Vulgar History merchandise is available at VulgarHistory.com/Store for Americans and for everyone else at VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. Follow us on social media @VulgarHistoryPod. Get in touch with me via email at VulgarHistoryPod@gmail.com.
References:
Learn more about Queen of Exiles on Vanessa’s website
Buy a copy of Queen of Exiles (affiliate link)
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Preorder info for Ann’s upcoming book, Rebel of the Regency!
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