Vulgar History Podcast
Author Interview: Vanessa Riley (Queen of Exiles)
July 13, 2023
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. Today, I’m so delighted to share this interview that I had with Vanessa Riley, who, if you aren’t familiar with her work, you’re about to be. And you should be, her books are so good! I was really thrilled to be able to chat with her about her new book, Queen of Exiles.
So, it is the story of Queen Marie-Louise Coidavid Christophe, who was the Queen of Haiti, and she lived in a period of time that I often think of as just the Regency era, the early 1800s. This book talks about the history of Haiti, it talks about what was going on in Europe at the time. This book goes to Italy, it goes to England. But at its core, it’s really the story of Queen Marie-Louise, and we talk in this interview that you’re about to hear, a lot about who the real-life person was. Vanessa also talks a lot about how she came to write this book, the research she did, it included some European travels, which sounds so lovely.
And Vanessa, just so you know, she was the 2023 Georgia Author of the Year award winner for her previous historical fiction book, Sister Mother Warrior. She’s written so many books, all historical fiction; some romance novels, some murder mysteries, some, like this book, straight-up fiction. All so good, and I’m really excited for you to hear this interview with Vanessa Riley about Queen of Exiles.
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Ann: Hi! So, I’m joined today by Vanessa Riley, whose new book is called Queen of Exiles, and I am so excited to talk to you about this book and to talk to you about the main character, who is a real historical figure. I have so many questions for you, but first, I just want to say welcome, Vanessa.
Vanessa: Well, Ann, thank you for having me. And I just can’t wait to talk about Queen of Exiles.
Ann: There’s a couple of things I want to talk about just to sort of ground everybody in the story and the history, because to understand who she is and the significance of her life, we need to talk a bit about the history of Haiti. So, can you sort of set the scene of the world that she was born into?
Vanessa: So, when Marie-Louise Coidavid is born, we’ll just call her Louise. She is in a blended family; she is the daughter of a hotelier owner. So, her father, a free Black man, owned this very exquisite hotel in Saint-Domingue, which is the capital during that time frame. So, you get a lot of Westerners coming in, they called it “the Pearl of the Antilles.” So, she was very used to that lifestyle because her father had catered to them, so his daughters understood that life.
But, you know, Saint-Domingue is a tale of two or three different factions; you have the grand blancs, which are the wealthiest, the wealthy; you have the petits blancs, who want to be grand blancs; then you have free coloureds who are mixed race children of Blancs and enslaved people who are now free; then you have just this wave of enslaved Blacks. So, you have afranchis that could also be free Blacks, but you have also this underbelly of society of enslavement. And everyone but the grand blancs are unhappy. Everybody wants more freedom, everybody wants the ability to move up socioeconomic classes, and this constraint of “I will steal you from the continent of Africa and force you in these camps, and I won’t care about the condition you’re living in,” and how the life expectancy is just cut short for these people.
So, there’s a lot of pain and whatnot, but you have this almost idyllic life in the same place. She is the hotelier’s daughter. Well, a free man comes to the inn one day, his name is Henri Christophe. He’s fought in the American Revolution, and he has ambitions to join the growing rebellions, but he instantly falls in love with this young girl. Family keeps them apart for, like, two years, [laughs] but they end up getting married, and now she’s a soldier’s wife, and the rebellion explodes, all factions of Haiti is burning. And finally, Jean-Jacques Dessalines commands the forces, and he is able to push France away. Henri Christophe is his second in command, and Haiti is now free.
She is now the, you know, being the wife of the general who’s the second in command is a lot of authority. I’ve read about the dinner parties and whatnot that she would hold at her house. But Henri Christophe is an ambitious man, and there’s discontent because Dessalines has now appointed himself as emperor because he’s trying to best Napoleon during this time frame. It’s a time of crisis, and there is discontent because those free coloureds are upset that the Black generals have all the power. The free coloureds have more education. The ones who excelled in combat are with the free Blacks. So, there’s this thing between Haiti where you have coloureds and free Blacks, and they’re fighting, they can’t get along. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is assassinated, and the country splits into two. So, the republic is in the south; the free coloureds are running that. The Black generals, they are running the kingdom in the north, and it eventually becomes a kingdom. Christophe becomes its first king, and his wife is the first queen. And so, I gave you probably too long of an explanation. [laughs]
Ann: No, no, no. It’s necessary. [laughs] It’s a part of history that I knew very little about going into this book. And I mean, I do want to let all the listeners know, like, in the book, you explain this step by step, so everybody knows what you need to know. But just in terms of this conversation and this podcast for people who haven’t read the book yet, the history of Haiti, it’s so interesting. I didn’t know any of these details until I read the book.
So, we’ve got this woman who met this guy at her family hotel. And now, suddenly, she’s the queen of Haiti. Can you talk about what that era was like for her, being the queen? He built a palace, Sans-Souci, and they’re hosting balls. It’s this elegant, glamorous time.
Vanessa: I’ve written her as a reluctant queen because she was content being a soldier’s wife. Then she had to become content being a general’s wife. Then she had to become content being the president’s wife. And now, he wants her to be a queen because Christophe believes that France is going to come back. His overarching thing is France is going to come back, and if Haiti does not have friends in Europe, in America, that will always be the way; France is going to come back, and no one will stop them. So, he decides that, “I look at the English court, I look at the Prussian court, I look at the Italian court. Everybody understands these peerages. We’re going to create that in Haiti.” So, we’re going to have “I’ll be the king. You will be the queen. We’ll create dukes or comtes and ducals. We’ll match the European aristocracy because if they see us as their peers, they will see us as human, and then they will understand why we need to be free and never under France’s yoke.”
In doing so, you know, women for the revolution were a huge part. The African identity was a huge part. And so, there is a battle now. What got us to be free? Women acting, women carrying the battle cries, the way of African battle movement and tracking. And now, you want women to go back to just being pretty faces in beautiful gowns, and you want to divorce yourself from this African identity to accept this European identity because you believe that is the way. And Louise, the practical woman, is trying to balance because she does see he is right, we need to have friends in the outside world. But at the same time, we cannot forget who we are; we cannot forget our identity. And so, there’s a battle that goes on.
The funny thing is, their kingdom is set exactly to the Regency. So, everybody is familiar with the Regency times. That’s the world they are trying to fit in, having this kingdom. It is a struggle, and there are successes in the kingdom that you find out. Like, you know, it blew my mind that they had immunizations. You could literally go into schools, and these children who once were picking in the fields, the sugarcane, are now learning French and English in the classrooms because he understood, “Our people have to be educated. We’ve got to be able to match the peers of the world.” He was bringing in scientists from America, from all over Europe. Just the lavishness! I mean, he’s buying things from the best furniture makers in Germany. Also, you know, the milliners in London. The jewels! It’s all of these things because he’s mimicking European society and the things that he believes that they value, and so when they come to visit, they will see it, they will identify with it, and then we can all fit in, and we will have support in the world.
So, it’s a fraught experience, and as a woman who understands the needs of that, but also understands where the people are and how far his vision is so far ahead of where they need to be and that the problems… She’s trying to right the ship, but it’s sometimes it’s just a bigger task than you are able to do.
Ann: And then can you explain where… You’re describing all the things he was purchasing, all the things that he was doing to make everything look similar to England and other royal courts like that. Where is the money coming from? It’s sugar exports, right?
Vanessa: Yes. When Dessalines is emperor, he begins to rebuild the economy because, you know, war has trashed the economy, the burning of the buildings, the burning of the fields. So, people are given land, and they have to farm this land, and they give a portion of this land to the government, so they give a portion to Henri. Well, Henri is selling this to the world. So, when the money comes in, there’s fees, there’s transfer fees, and that’s going into his pocket, into his collection, and the rest goes into Haiti.
So, there’s literally, there’s points where they have to his ministers come to him, like, “Hey, man, we’re going to split this up so that everybody knows what is the country’s, what is yours.” But at one point, he actually has more cash on hand than the King of England. They are wealthy in property, lands, and jewels, but if you’re talking about cold, hard cash, [scoffs] Henri actually has more, because the lust for sugar did not stop with Haiti becoming free. It is still the drug of choice of all over the world, and the imports are within— I forget the metrics, but within a couple of years, they were exporting a great deal of sugar to the world.
Ann: And I really wanted to understand where the money was coming from, because that becomes such a major plot point. It’s funny talking to you about this book, you know, people listening who haven’t read the book yet, the book is not told in chronological order. You kind of see some of this, the time period you’re talking about when Henri is so ambitious, and she’s being the queen, and then you’re also seeing earlier, and you’re also seeing later. So, I think we can jump around her life a bit, and it’s not going to spoil the book for people. But she ends up in Europe, basically, and there’s a question of how is she going to support herself? It turns out that there is a substantial amount of money she’s able to have, right?
Vanessa: Yes, yes. And it was interesting rebuilding all of that, because to me, it was always a disconnect. When people talk about Louise, I always hear “poor and sorrowful,” always attached to her name. She came to my attention, one, because of the research I’d done for my previous book, but they were putting a plaque on a house in Mayfair saying that “Marie-Louise lived here.” Mayfair is one of the most expensive parts of London. And then, another house in Hastings, on the seacoast. I actually was able to walk in this house and look at the view from her living room. It is amazing! These are expensive cottages.
Now, am I to believe that the goodness and mercy of the English society is going to take a poor, exiled Black woman, and put her up in all of these wonderful, exquisite, luxurious locations? Or does it make more sense that she actually has access to money? When you look at that financing, Henri has banks that he’s dealing with in America, he has banks that he’s dealing with in London. When he dies unexpectedly, they’re still holding on to large portions of that money. In my opinion, that’s what she draws on, she utilized. She retains the same people; they are able to make settlements with all of these banks, and that is what she has to live on. They do extensive travel all across Europe, and the properties that she owned or leased are immaculate. You cannot do that if you have no access to money.
So, she was able to rebuild. She didn’t have it at first because, you know, we see her living in hotels, we see her living on the kindness of some of the abolitionists that were working with the kingdom at first. But then, when she comes into her own, it’s significant, and she’s able to live well, and she’s able to make sure her daughters, who came with her, have the princess experience, so to speak, that they are treated like royals, which they were.
Ann: And you mentioned, you know, it’s happening over the 19th century, so starting off in kind of the what we think of, what I think of, as Regency England, you know, when I think about that time period, that’s the most famous country at that time. And then, getting later into the 19th century, and she’s— You have in your book, you include, I think you say there are actual news clippings of stories about things. She was so well-known and so famous at the time, like, as just this wealthy queen in exile, travelling around Europe. It blows my mind! I’ve never heard of her before. I didn’t know any of this. Right?
Vanessa: This completely blew my mind. And at one point, I was suckered into this, “Okay, well, maybe she had some money, but maybe she wasn’t accepted in society.” And then, I start doing this research, and I find these news clippings, and she was very well received in society. Marriage proposals, you know, you have your fortune hunter chasings as well, and people pretending at different points that they are related so they could get part of this money that she has. So, the fact that people know she has money and they’re curious, what is this woman doing? What is how does she appear? Where is she going?
The best example of how far she climbed and how far she was held in status was there was a huge opera opening, and I believe it was David Copperfield is cataloging this for his memoirs, his travel memoirs or whatnot. And he talks about the King of Prussia being seated in the front row, and the King of Westphalia seated in the front row, and then you have Madame Christophe and her daughters, and then you have the Prince of Prussia— Front row. Front section; not hiding in the corner. Sitting next to, literally, enemies of her husband, because these are the brothers of Napoleon, sitting in that front row with her and her daughters.
So, that’s the level she climbed— Money, I believe, in history has always trumped race. So, all of our expectations that we get post-Victorian sanctification and ripping away of different legacies, this is not there. This is before all of this. This is where everything is. And so, the newspapers literally tell you the story that everywhere she went, people are following her, taking— You know, not necessarily taking pictures, but they are recording what she’s doing, where she’s going, who she’s meeting with.
Her papers, during I think the First World War, maybe in the Second, but her papers were bombed and destroyed. I would have loved to get my hands, to get a deeper dive into what she was thinking was going on, because she saw, you know, all of her enemies die. They all died in Haiti or when they went abroad, everybody that came against her. She’s literally, in my opinion, a living legacy of the achievement of that society. And she lived her life as a queen, and I think we do such a disservice where we rationalize in our heads what we think has happened in history, as opposed to what has actually happened in history.
Ann: When you were discovering these newspaper articles and, like, that detail you just gave about her sitting front row. I mean, what were you thinking? Because you went into this, I would imagine, not knowing any of these details, and then just detail after detail, explaining that she was this— She was literally a queen. She was a queen like any other queen; she was travelling around; she was wealthy, she was respected. What was it like to discover these details?
Vanessa: It blew my mind! Because I had bought into… You know, it still stopped making sense, right? I had bought into the lie that this Black woman is there with her daughters, she’s poor, she’s ostracized from society. And I wasn’t looking for a story of sadness, so I was desperate to find some hope, something to show that, you know, though there is suffering in her life, that is not her life. And then we go into it, and newspaper after newspaper, talking about her jewels, talking about her going here, going to different spas. I mean, it’s just enormous how well documented Queen Louise is and her travels in Europe. And yet, none of that remains in our present psyche; we go back to poor, sorrowful because the kingdom fell. She was part of that kingdom. That is not that woman; this woman is so much more than the kingdom.
And in my opinion, everything that Henri wanted to achieve, this acceptance, she got it when she was in Europe. She was a queen, recognized as a queen. So, you know, to me, we do a disservice when we don’t look at the facts, when we just assume based on systemic racism that this is the way this woman is going to be treated. We make all these assumptions, and we are literally putting her in a box that she was never in, she overcame. I’m not saying her life was easy by any stretch of the imagination; a lesser woman might have been broken and whatnot. She kept her dignity, and she marched through life with her head up, not down. So, she had joy in the midst of sorrows. She found victory where people wanted her to be defeated. She’s a woman we need to know.
Ann: Absolutely! That’s part of… Just reading this book, and then… I love that you put in the newspaper articles because that really is like, this is true. This is real, this is what happened. Because I kept reading this, and I was like, how could this be true, and I’ve never heard anything about any of this? And you just explained…
Vanessa: That’s why I love the fact that they let me put the newspaper clippings in, because you’ve got to see it! Sometimes with historical fiction, you don’t know what’s true, what’s not, you know, where is the author’s imagination? I mean, it is fiction, right? Because I wasn’t privy to these conversations. You do do approximation of like, if I’m living in the sphere, I’m in the palace, these are the possible conversations I’m going to have. But when you see, in black and white, these newspaper articles, I mean, truth is stranger than fiction. And I was like, I’m going to have to put this in just so y’all will understand: This is true! This is real! This is happening!
Ann: No, exactly. That was exactly my experience when I was reading it. I was just thinking, there’s a part in the book where she… There’s another suitor who comes on the scene. And I was like, okay. Well, you know, Vanessa’s probably imagining that, she’s probably making this part— No! No. The newspapers are like “These two people were seen together. There are rumours that he had proposed to her.” I’m like, oh! Okay. [laughs] No, that’s also drawn from history.
Vanessa: Prince Pückler is another guy who’s famous for being a writer, but before that, he was looking for a rich wife, he was looking for a rich wife, number two. But he never actually marries again after meeting Louise. So, there’s a change that happens. He still loves women because they’re there are women before and after Louise, he loves women. But that whole motivation to find a rich wife, to marry, changes after he meets her. So, there’s something special there, and I think also her full healing from the tragedies of what happened with Henri, et cetera, and just, she’s still a woman, even though she’s queen.
Ann: This is, honestly, like, even talking to you right now, I’m just like, I can’t believe that this is a real person from history and no one’s ever really written about her before!
Vanessa: Originally, I started to buy in until things the math was not mathing, and I’m like, something is wrong here! So, I expanded my search, particularly because originally, I was trying to find more meetings within the British aristocracy. But when I started looking at the whole of Europe because she travels, that’s where you find all these other very interesting connections and meetings and the life that she lived. She was very European in her travels, in where she lived.
So, with Queen of Exiles, I wanted to give you a taste of all of this that this woman has done that we should really know about. That’s the other disservice! We’ve done a disservice to ourselves by not knowing about this woman. Or even looking at Haiti in today’s lens as this as a society that’s a struggle, as opposed to what it was and what it could have been if countries had stepped up and done the right thing and kept France from coming back.
Ann: I think it’s in the postscript, like, the epilogue of the book, you mentioned just briefly – and we don’t need to get into it a lot – but you do a comparison to Bridgerton, you know, the thought of having Black people at these elegant balls, having these titles and stuff. And you say, like, that’s what was happening in Haiti. That comparison just really sat with me because, you know, there’s been all these discussions about Bridgerton and with Queen Charlotte and stuff, and just what does it mean that that show – which presents a fantasy world, a fantasy version of England where Black people are in the aristocracy – and you’re saying, well, in Haiti, that was what was happening.
Vanessa: Exactly. I love Bridgerton because there’s something magical about seeing this diverse cast and seeing love is love on the big screen, right? It’s incredibly magical; it’s escapism. And the fabrics and the beauty, but that’s fantasy. They take bits of truth and, like, some of the— You know, the fashions aren’t even— If you want to be a stickler, the fashions aren’t exactly Regency-esque. But that’s not why we go to Bridgerton; we go for pure enjoyment, we want to watch the story evolve, we want to root for our people.
But when we look at history, there are people to root for, there are stories to be told, and Haiti is a special place. What they had for the exact same nine years as the Regency, from 1811 to 1820, was magical. They achieved such heights. This was a society of promise, and all the lovely intrigue and court life that you love in Bridgerton, it was happening over here in Haiti! [laughs] With the same levels of opulence and the crazies and the balls, and they were bringing opera troops. I mean, it’s just, when you read it, and you realize the culture aspect that was happening, it just blows your mind. To me, I constantly was, like, mouth open, and I’m like, nobody’s going to believe this. [laughs] Like I said, that’s one of the reasons I highly document things. I’m like, y’all don’t believe me? You go look at the bibliography. You look at it, there’s a newspaper clip; make of it what you will. I don’t know how we do it, but somehow, we’re going to have to evolve where the facts matter, and we can’t just write things off or close our minds to things because we assume it would have to be this way, particularly on the acceptance of a royal woman coming from the Haitian court.
You know, one of my favourite anecdotes was Prince Saunders, who was an American, went to England, and actually had breakfast with the Prince Regent because his name was Prince. Richard and his people didn’t realize that Prince Saunders, Prince was his first name [Ann laughs] and not an honorific. But once again, if you come and you have titles and you have money, you are accepted into the fold. Now, it doesn’t mean you’re exempt from scandal. They’re looking for scandal, you know, they’re waiting for you to do something. It doesn’t mean you’re exempt from scandal, but there’s a level of acceptance that money has bought.
So, this is a thing that I don’t think people really realize, and then the whole history of Haiti, it was amazing. To me, it always asked that question: What if? What if they’d gotten a little more support? Because Henri had actually achieved that. Russia and England had stepped in and forstole France from coming back in 1818 and 1819, but then he dies in 1820, and five years after he dies, France comes back demanding repayment for the losses of the war.
Ann: I don’t know if you know the musical Camelot, or even just the concept of Camelot, but you know, there’s that song that they sing that it’s like, “For one brief shining moment, there was this amazing thing,” and that’s the way you’re describing Haiti and the way it’s in the book. And that’s another thing I appreciate about the way you wrote the book, which is not in chronological order. So, in the scenes that are set during that sort of glory time, when the kingdom was thriving, like, you’re sitting there in that moment, and there’s not a sense of— You’re right there; it’s live, it’s happening. You’re not thinking like, “Oh, it was a short period of time. Things got bad afterwards.” You can sit there and, like, it felt to me similar to reading Regency England; it’s just princes and princesses, and you know, who’s going to marry who, and all this courtly intrigue. The people in it didn’t know it was going to end so soon, so they were just living like this was going to go on forever.
Vanessa: Exactly. As one would, right? [laughs]
Ann: Yeah! Yeah.
Vanessa: Because, you know, the sugar money is still coming in, it’s still funding this lifestyle. And they are getting on with it, they’re alive. So, you know, they’re still rebuilding pieces of Haiti because of, you know, the years of war. They have these moments of very high culture that, to me, is exciting, and it’s a discovery that I wanted to share and bring you in. You’re right, I wrote it so you don’t feel that dread, looking at the clock like, “Oh, only five more years. Oh, only three more.” No. I wanted you to be there and to see the problems that they had within the kingdom, and then when you jump back, you see the problems outside of the kingdom.
Ann: I did want to also mention… So, two other important characters in the book are her two daughters, who leave Haiti with her, who are with her in exile. Can you just talk about their stories and how you learned about them and which details you included in the book?
Vanessa: So, she has two daughters who flee with her. The younger daughter is of a sickly nature; she’s very curious about the world, very supportive of her mom. The older daughter was, I would say, the beautiful one in Haiti; she was getting the acclaim within her father’s construct, she’s a princess royal. And now, you come to England, and you want to have that social life. This is before they’re able to really reclaim their money, and so they’re only put in the little boxes here. But the world begins to slowly, as the money starts being recovered, beginning to expand. You know, they’re going to parties and balls, and they’re wearing these expensive gowns and whatnot. They’re fitting in! Or so they think they’re fitting in, in England, because, you know, these are very old peerages, peerages older than your peerage. That begins to be at play.
And then that whole identity of, what is beauty? What is the standard of beauty? In that particular time frame, a healthy blonde girl is the ultimate. It wasn’t these little, skinny things that we see around nowadays. [laughs] Healthy girl, because you can bear some babies! That was the standard of beauty. Black is not on the scale. It’s not that people didn’t find Black beautiful; there’s always been an appetite for Black bodies. But this is something that’s being wrestled with.
So, as a mother, how do you give the world to your kids? How do you give society? And then, when she gets rejected because of who she is, how do you deal with that? And then, there’s always that, you know, like the Moses looking back with people, like, “We had bread back in Egypt. Maybe we should go back because people thought I was beautiful and I fit in back in my Haitian world.” And it’s like, go back to what? They’re killing anybody associated with us. And if you marry somebody with political intentions, your husband and your children will also be at risk because they’re fearful that the Christophe line will reign again. There is no future for you in Haiti, not as it is. How do you deal with that?
So, when they finally begin to travel, the world opens up more than when they were in England, and in the European stage, because now they have full access to the money, and they can go to the various places, it is back to peerages matter more than race and standards of beauty. People see beauty in people at this point. And so, that is showcased in these daughters.
But at the same time, how does a mother who’s dealt with tragedy, knowing that her youngest daughter is sickly and that one day she may not be able to breathe, she may not wake up, how do you give her enough of this new life so that you feel like you’ve done everything for her to? It’s tricky. It’s another balance; she’s back to being in a balancing act. How do I show the proper amount of attention to each daughter? I love both of my daughters. But because of their needs, they take different parts of me, they require different amounts of time. How do I balance that? While, at the same time, I know the world is looking in, waiting for me to stumble.
Ann: And I thought it was so interesting too, the way that you describe, because the two girls, they grew up during this time of affluence in Haiti. So, they grew up as princesses, which is such a different childhood from what their mother lived. So, she’s trying to understand their understanding of the world. It’s just a really interesting balance, but again, and I think you mentioned this a couple of times in the book, there’s some parts where the main character herself is thinking about, you know, what does it mean to be Black and to be royal, and to present a role model to these girls who don’t have anyone else to look up to, who is that? What does that mean? And there is a part in the book where, I forget the name of it, but it’s a book that was written in that time period about… [chuckles]
Vanessa: Yes! Yes, yes, yes. By Claire… I don’t remember the name either.
Ann: Ourika.
Vanessa: Yes, yes, Ourika. I’m afraid of mispronouncing it; I’m very southern in my pronunciation. So, yeah, that is that’s a true book, and the connection is the Viscount who befriends Madame Christophe. That book, to me, is one of the most horrible books, but it’s… What’s the nice way to put this? These are the kind of books that have been acceptable in publication for a long time. I call it the pain, porn, quantity. Right? So, you give enough Black tragedy and Black pain, and that’s a winner right there, because it just gets to the audience, and people get to feel sorry about things they didn’t do, and just… [laughs]
And it’s written by someone who doesn’t understand the beauty of Black skin, who doesn’t understand the journey or the walk when you are Black, trying to write a Black person, and coming up with “It must be sorrowful.” It must be “You don’t want to be Black. You want to be anything other than Black.” And then, the descriptions of this book about a devil and all the different stereotypes that have been characterized throughout the years of a Black existence, you find it in this book, and this book becomes, like, a number one seller in France.
It’s horrible, but to me, it’s just another flash point of showing what they have to do to exist. To go back to— Even Henri’s perspective of, “We have to show the world this so that they know this is what Blacks can achieve. So, they know that they can be comfortable around us because we’re just like everybody else.” And you get this book published in that same time frame, and they would have access to it. To me, I had to put it in because it’s a capstone. It’s a stake in the ground of, “This is what the world potentially could be thinking of you and your daughters and why we think you’re going to fail, and why I can’t fail as Queen Louise. I have to make sure I succeed. I have to make sure my daughter succeed so that we don’t become Ourika.”
Ann: Yeah. Just the moment where, I forget, it’s one of the daughters, but they’d been raised as princesses, you know, surrounded in a place with Black nobles and aristocracy, and then she reads this book, and she’s like, “Oh my god, this is…” She didn’t realize that that’s how she is seen by other people, and it’s a sort of major moment for her. But then, you also say in your afterword of the book, and you mentioned earlier in the interview as well, that you didn’t want to write a book about tragedy and pain; you wanted to find a story of hope. So, I thought that that was an interesting parallel that in the book— It’s a way that you can mention in the book, you know, that both your characters feel this way, and you obviously feel this way. Why do Black stories always have to be stories of grief and misery and pain? Why can’t it be a story of triumph and hope? And that’s what this book is! You’ve written so many books, all of them historical, I think, and that’s very much what you’re doing in all of your books.
Vanessa: Exactly. Shhh! No one’s figured that out yet. [both laugh] The little rebel, Vanessa. But yeah, there is so much to the existence that is more than just pain; there are moments of joy. Even if you are suffering, you’re in a bad situation, you can still find moments in the day to smile, certain things will make you happy. You hang on to joy much more fiercely when you know sorrow, and I see that’s what these people did. You know, Queen Louise, she lost a lot, and then had to leave her homeland in order to make sure that her daughters were safe and that they could have a safe future. That is a great burden to put on someone. But I cannot see how you can go to every spa city in Europe and be unhappy. I’m like, come on now! [laughs]
So, they found moments of joy. I’m convinced that they found moments of joy. The fact that they still took to the opera… Because if they stewed in their depression or really were consumed with how much we lost as opposed to what we have, they wouldn’t go to opera. They wouldn’t be concerned about what they wore. They wouldn’t go to these various places and follow the royal tours like they did if they were worried about all of the pain that they had suffered. They were trying to make their futures; they were trying to move forward, and to me, that is what this book should show: how they move forward.
Ann: Again, for me, my experience reading this book was absolutely that. That sense of just sort of a very strong woman who faces all these challenges, but she’s got this indomitable spirit about her, so she just keeps going forward. But part of me, reading the book, was also just like, how did I not know any of this? How have I never heard of her? [laughs] So, it’s both. It’s both.
Vanessa: You know, unfortunately, sometimes these gems are hidden, and the pain stories are the ones that we all know. You know, I was one of those kids that was glued to the TV when Roots came on. Roots is a very important story, but it’s not the only story. But it seems like since that was successful, that told everybody in the world, “Oh, these are the kind of stories that everybody wants to see!” We want to see some of those stories because it’s important to remember, but we also want to see the heroes and the revolutionists. We want to see the people who just made discoveries, the inventors, the business people, the politicians, people who changed the world. We want to see that, too. And we want to see people who fell in love and had nice lives, you know? That weren’t always characterized by suffering and misery. We want to see the full gamut perspective. Everybody is owed a full gamut of identity. We’re everything; we can be warriors, we can be martyrs, we can be lovers, we can be on the picket lines. We can be everything. Everybody’s owed a full humanity, and sometimes that has been lacking.
Ann: When I think also, again, the fact that you put the newspaper headings in, which is a detail I love, but to really confirm for people who are reading this, like, this is a real person, this is how she moved through the world, this is how she was seen. Because a flip side of this is, sort of, when people do start putting Black people back into historical films, there’s that pushback being like, “Oh, that’s not accurate. Oh, there wasn’t…” Whatever. “There wasn’t Black people in ancient Egypt. There wasn’t Black people in the Roman Empire,” or whatever, where it’s like, uhhh, what are you talking about? So, a book like this, it proves, you know [laughs] Black people weren’t only enslaved for all of history. Here’s evidence. And I love that your book is like, every single chapter starts with like, proof, proof, proof. You’re not making this up. So, hopefully, it could open people’s minds when they see other stories that are not just all white people, to show that.
Vanessa: Exactly. I know I’m breaking ground in a lot of these stories. And so, I go to the nth degree, the full-on, you know, dissertation in the back of the book, plus bibliography and whatnot. This was a new level of putting the actual newspaper clippings in the story. Writers shouldn’t have to go to that to tell these stories, shouldn’t have to go to those links. I don’t mind going to it because I know it’s going to add to the enjoyment and discovery for my readers. But that shouldn’t have to be the level that someone needs to do in order to make sure everybody understands this is really based on a true story. This really happened to this woman and her daughters and her family.
But, you know, hopefully, you guys will go out, and you get this book, and you’ll read it, and you’ll tell your friends about it, and you’ll tell more friends, because when these types of books come into the mainstream, it opens the door for more books. It makes the job of historical fiction writers easier, it makes everything more accessible, and everybody’s story gets to get told.
Ann: That’s what I really hope for this. Like, you’re saying you’re breaking new ground. Listeners: the bibliography, there’s pages and pages and pages! Like, although it is an academic nonfiction book, like, you’ve got all of your facts straight. But hopefully, exactly, as figures like this become more known, then more people can write about them in different ways, and the next person who writes about her won’t have to prove as much because maybe the story will be better— More people will know it a bit already.
Vanessa: Exactly. Exactly! Or even some of these new figures. You know, there’s so many people who need their stories told, who need to be brought back into our consciousness, and if this can open more doors, because we need the whole story, we need everybody, and everyone’s story is important. So, we need all of it, and you know, we shouldn’t be afraid of letting these stories be told.
Ann: So, this episode is coming out just the same week that your book is being published. So, can you tell people… I assume you’re going to be doing events. You’re going to be where can people keep up with where they can find you and that sort of thing?
Vanessa: My website, VanessaRiley.com, has all the events listed. If you’re on social media, my Instagram, my Linktree has all the events linked, so you can go because we’ve got some fabulous events, everything from lunch at Foxtale’s, and all of the venues, you can order books, I will sign them, personalize them for you, and they ship— Everybody does everything all over the country. So, it’s going to be great. But yeah, VanessaRiley.com or my Instagram, I have the most up-to-date of what’s going on, follow me there. It’s going to be fun. I should get my newsletter. I might have even more tea in the newsletter.
Ann: Fabulous. I love that there’s a way— Yeah, I love that just in this era, there’s a real way for readers to connect with authors and see what they’re up to and to follow you.
Vanessa: And I’m going to be in Columbus, I’m going to be in New York, I’m going to be in Aiken, South Carolina, I’m going to be all over Atlanta. So, there’s a number of venues to catch me or order books, it’s going to be great. But check my website out, that’s the mothership of all.
Ann: Perfect. Well, thank you so, so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It was… Sometimes when I read a book, I’m just so thankful I have this podcast, so I have a reason that I can talk to the author and ask questions and learn more, but also just to let you know how much I enjoyed the book and how much I appreciate what you do. So, thank you.
Vanessa: Oh, thank you. And thank you for having me! And have me back, I’ll probably have more books. [both laugh]
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So, again, the book is Queen of Exiles by Vanessa Riley. It’s available everywhere, everywhere. I can’t recommend it enough; it’s such an interesting book. I love what she’s doing with these historical fiction novels, these recent ones. So, her previous two in this kind of, not a series, but this sort of similar thing, there’s Island Queen and Sister Mother Warrior are looking at lesser-known, I mean frankly, at this point, kind of unknown, Black women from history and re-examining their stories and turning them into these lovely novels. She’s also written some murder mysteries like Murder in Westminster, Murder in Drury Lane. She’s written romance novels like A Duke, The Lady, & A Baby. There are so many things! Anyway, you can find out all about her books and Queen of Exiles and where she’s going to be appearing as this book launches, which is VanessaRiley.com.
This is Vulgar History. You can keep up with this show, we’re on Instagram @VulgarHistoryPod, and on TikTok @VulgarHistory. You can get early, ad-free access to all episodes if you join the Patreon, which is Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter, and you can get transcripts for recent episodes by Aveline Malek of The Wordary at VulgarHistory.com. So, thank you so much for listening. I’ll talk to you all next time. Until then, keep your pants on and your tits out.
Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Ann Foster and edited by Cristina Lumague.
References:
Learn more about Vanessa, her book, and where she’ll be appearing to promote this book at vanessariley.com
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