Regency Era It Girl Emma Hamilton (part two)

Vulgar History Podcast

Regency Era It Girl Emma Hamilton (part two) 

April 15, 2026

Ann: Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and if you’re watching this on video and Patreon, this is my cat Hepburn. She is sitting directly in front of me. This is our Regency Era season; we’re talking about stuff that happened mostly in England in the late 1700s, early 1800s. This is also known as the Napoleonic era, and we’re going to get into some of that this week in our discussion of Emma Hamilton, part two. I would recommend part one, if you haven’t already heard it, lot happening.

Amanda: It is sort of foundational. 

Ann: Yeah. If you didn’t hear part one, you’ll just be like, “Oh, here’s this fancy lady who’s the wife of an ambassador. I assume there’s nothing interesting in her life before this point.” Listen to part one. She had quite a journey getting to this point. I’m joined by Amanda Matta, royal commentator, art history expert. You love drama. You love a… 

Amanda: I love drama. I love historical drama, modern drama. If someone’s wearing a crown and being messy, like, I will be there. You can find me in the background of the picture. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And this is a story with so much drama because we’re getting into Emma Hamilton, part two. So, I mean, here’s what you missed on Vulgar History. Emma Hamilton was born to a blacksmith who was maybe murdered by his wife. She was a maid, she hated it with her friend, Jane, who’s going to come back in this episode. She did some sex work. She was a goddess at the Temple of Health and Hymen. She was sex trafficked a few times. She had a daughter that she was forced to abandon. And now she’s in Naples, married to this diplomat. She is Lady Hamilton. And Amanda, can you explain what’s happening in Naples, politically? 

Amanda: No! But I can try. Okay. So, yes, she’s in Naples. She’s gotten the My Fair Lady treatment; she’s like, a society hostess. She’s also friends with Maria Carolina, who is the queen of Naples, also the sister to Marie Antoinette. The political drama that’s about to unfold kind of directly relates to that because Maria Carolina is so understandably angry and upset when her sister is beheaded in the French Revolution. The queen, Marie Carolina, goes very anti-French. Like, it’s very US freedom fries if you were around for that era in our history when we, like, just boycotted all things French. So does Maria Carolina. She is very paranoid of, like, French agents who have declared war… France has declared war on Austria, and then Britain declares war on France. So, Maria Carolina is trying to figure out— Because she’s actually the one pulling the strings, I should also say, in Naples. Her husband, King Ferdinand, famously…

Ann: He’s useless. Just a fuckboy. 

Amanda: Yeah. So, even Napoleon at one point says of Maria Carolina that she is the only man in Naples and, like, these are enemies. France and Naples: enemies. So, they join; Naples joins what’s called the First Coalition against France. Anyone remotely suspected of like French sympathy is persecuted. Maria Carolina is very paranoid about French agents in Naples. She’s, like, switching around the family’s apartments in the palace in Naples on a daily basis. Emma is her bestie, as we discussed in the first part, so she’s presumably there, at least aware of all of this thought process, maybe influencing the decisions that the queen is making, who, again, is the one who really has power here. 

So, Maria Carolina, she wants to escalate and go to war with France, which leads to what I called in the first part a reverse revolution. So, she gets her husband to go to war with France in 1798, so Naples is at war with France. They make a failed attempt to march to Rome, and the king finds out that the only people in his country, Naples, who are willing to support the French restoring the monarchy, which is their goal, are the peasants. For some reason, the educated middle class and the aristocrats in Naples are more fond of the idea of France being a republic, and the king and queen of Naples are like, “No, no, no! We did this because we like aristocrats and we like monarchy.” So, the king and queen of Naples find themselves, like, being revolted against by not the peasants, not the working class, but by the upper classes, which is, like, the worst-case scenario and very confusing for historians reading into it. 

So, there’s like a very short civil war, literally it’s like, six months, where the Jacobin and Republican coalitions in Naples are running rampant. Maria Carolina goes into hiding with the royal family. Presumably, again, Emma Hamilton is there with them. But this takes us a little bit farther into her future. We need to back up a bit to talk about what Emma is up to before this mini revolution. But, like, that’s what’s going on in the background for her. 

Ann: So, this is suddenly… Just Emma’s entire life was in the wake of various wars, basically. You’ve got the French Revolution-era wars; it’s going to lead into the Napoleonic wars. This is just the backdrop of her entire life. 

Amanda: She’s like, “Yeah, another revolution. Fine.”

Ann: Yeah. So, we’re getting into… I don’t know, what year are you up to? 

Amanda: So, that would take us up to about 1799, which is the year after she reconnects with the guy we dropped at the end of last episode, Horatio Nelson. 

Ann: So, Horatio Nelson comes to Naples. Now, I just want to mention during… Well, it’s been a week for all of you, but for us, we just took a little break between part one and part two, and I was like, let’s just brush up on my Horatio Nelson knowledge. So, I looked at the Wikipedia page, which, as of when I read it, didn’t even have a section for personal life. It’s all just, like, war, war, war, battle, battle, battle. It’s like, he’s got such a brilliant mind. Listeners, we’re not going to talk about any of that. 

Amanda: He actually wasn’t always recognized as a military genius. He wasn’t a general. Well, he was an admiral towards the end, but he sometimes had to disregard direct orders from his senior officers, and that was part of why he was such a romantic kind of Lord Byron-esque hero. 

Ann: He had some military victories that made him very famous. So, he and Emma met each other when he was coming… It was like someone else was supposed to be in charge of these ships going to Naples, but then they’re like, “Euhhh, no. Let’s just send this guy instead.” He was not yet a hero. And so, she met him, and she was like, “Could England side with Naples in our various wars? We need your help.” She’s doing her soft diplomacy, throwing herself at him, but she’s also like, “Mmm, this guy is kind of… Kind of like this guy.” The thing with Nelson too, is he becomes very successful in a military way, but he’s from humble origins, too. So, I feel like Emma’s meeting… So much of her life has been around these, like, upper-class people, where she knows how to hang out with them. But like, this is someone she could probably talk to in a more genuine way, because he’s from, like, humble roots like her. 

Amanda: Yeah. I know Nelson had to scrape to get where he eventually found himself. Like, for a long time, and especially in his marriage, he was married, he and his wife, they were very frustrated. Like, he wasn’t making money, he wasn’t getting any command positions for a long time in his military career. So, eventually, kind of similar to what Napoleon’s doing, but he’s British, Nelson, he goes to the Mediterranean. He helps to capture Corsica; he’s in Tenerife, where he loses his right arm in 1797.

Ann: And also, he gets shrapnel in his eye. So, one of his eyes is non-functioning, and like anyone, I presume the shrapnel stays in his eye because when he’s stressed, it would inflame and cause him a lot of pain. 

Amanda: And he would use that. I did look and he has a little brief BBC biography that is kind of useful for getting broad strokes. Apparently, he once ignored orders to withdraw from action by putting his telescope to his blind eye and claiming he didn’t actually see the signal. So, like, “Oops! We kept fighting.” But like, because he was such a great military commander, he could get away with it. [laughs] 

Ann: So, he’s like short, missing an eye, missing an arm. 

Amanda: Teeth. I don’t think he has a lot of teeth either. 

Ann: Pretty sure. Pretty sure he doesn’t. So, he’s not who you think of as a heartthrob, but because of his military success, he becomes a heartthrob. People have, like, Nelson posters, Nelson, you know, printed on their mugs and their plates. 

Amanda: Right next to their Emma poster, probably. 

Ann: They have their Emma poster, and then they have their Nelson poster. So, when Nelson meets Emma, everyone’s like, [Amanda gasps dramatically] you know, these two are finally together. 

Amanda: It’s Tom Holland and Zendaya, except Tom Holland is probably way more attractive. 

Ann: Yes. Well, actually, yeah, because Emma is also tall. So, they meet each other, and all of society is, like, shipping this even before the two of them become lovers because it’s just like, this is the man of the hour, this is the woman of the hour, they’ve met each other. In fact, they do really like each other. And part of it is he shows up, and he is ill from something, I don’t know, dysentery or something, and she personally nurses him back to health. 

Amanda: Of course she does. 

Ann: So, the thing with Nelson… There’s a lot of things with Nelson, but one of them is that he falls in love very easily. He is a really romantic guy. He has this wife, Fanny, but almost right away, they don’t get along with each other. He married her, she was, like, a heiress from the Caribbean – listen back to my episode about the heiresses from the Caribbean to learn more about that part of this history – and she sort of portrayed herself as being wealthy to kind of convince him to marry her, and then he married her, and it turns out she’s not wealthy. [Amanda squirms] And she has a son, he’s like a teenage son at this point, who’s sort of on the ships with Nelson, his name is Josiah, and he’s just not into it. Much like Emma was not into being a maid, Josiah is not into being a sailor. 

They do not have any further children. I think probably something, like, I think it was a traumatic birth with Josiah, so Fanny is not able to have more children. Nelson really wants children. It’s like, he wants to be a wife guy, he wants to be a girl dad, but he’s not getting that from his wife. And he’s just had, like lots of men in this time, lots of affairs with lots of people. He meets Emma, and he’s just like, [gasps]. If your guy falls easily and you’re meeting like the most beautiful girl in the world and she’s nursing you back to health, like, of course, he falls for her. 

Amanda: And to the point where he writes back to Fanny, his wife, like, talking about Emma and how remarkable she is, how talented she is. So, like, rub it in. I would prefer you just abandon your wife and let her get on with her life, but that’s not what he does, and we will see that gets messy. 

Ann: It gets really messy. And like, honestly, justice for Fanny. 

Amanda: Justice for Fanny. 

Ann: Because he tries, at one point, to divorce her, but the only way – and I talk about this in my book, Rebel of the Regency: The Scandalous Saga of Caroline of Brunswick, Britain’s Queen of the Crown, because her husband tries to divorce her – the only way that you can get a divorce, it’s really complicated in this era to get a divorce, and it only happens if you can prove that the wife has been unfaithful, if the marriage was not consummated. That’s kind of it. And Fanny is like, “The marriage is consummated; I’ve not been unfaithful. Come at me. You can’t divorce me,” like whatever. So, Fanny is holding her own, and I respect it. 

And Emma also has from her, if we’re talking about, like, what is it? The mother wound. Nelson and Emma are both, like, they become extremely codependent on each other, and I think both of them have this bottomless need for love that is never going to be fulfilled because of their own psychological problems. So, they just, like, trauma bond. They’re just like “This. Is. Happening.” But also, Emma has all these skills that are useful for him. Nelson does not speak any language other than English; Emma speaks every language. She’s also really politically agile and knowledgeable in a way that he’s not, so she kind of becomes his, like, helper, his translator. 

Amanda: Yeah, his secretary, like right-hand woman, kind of. If you’re thinking of like Hamilton Hamilton being George Washington’s right-hand man, it’s kind of the same, except they’re also fucking. [laughs] 

Ann: Yeah, so she becomes very instrumental in his success and in his career, kind of helping him extend his career. She’s also still married to Sir William, who, at this point, is like, in his sixties, I think, and his health is not great. 

Amanda: Yeah, he would be in his late sixties, and if we’re talking about 1798, ‘99, Emma is finally in her thirties. She’s finally like, a full adult, which is great for her. 

Ann: She’s got a frontal lobe, like, things are happening. [Amanda laughs] And she’s just like, “I’m into this guy, Lord Nelson.” This is where I just want to mention, I was like, wow! This story, it’s such a saga, I’m like, “There must be a hundred movies about it,” and there hasn’t been any recently, and that is surprising to me because the British love to do stories about the British being great. But you know who she’s a bit, Emma Hamilton? She’s a bit Hailee Steinfeld, I just thought. 

Amanda: Yeah, I can see that.

Ann: She’s very tall, dark hair, really pretty, and she can… But also really smart. And like, I can picture Hailey Steinfeld doing the “Attitudes,” you know? 

Amanda: You know what else I was thinking? Did you see the new Wuthering Heights movie adaptation? 

Ann: No, but I’m very aware of it. 

Ann: Okay. So, like, some of the reviews talk about the actress who plays Nellie, who is like, a servant; she ends up stealing all the scenes she’s in. And I was just thinking, how much more interesting would it be if Emerald Fennell wanted to tell this version of Wuthering Heights, do it through, like, Nellie’s perspective? I would love to see this story through the perspective of Emma’s mom. So, like, start with her maybe murdering her husband, and like, that’s crazy on its own. But then your daughter grows up to become this political go-between, societal muse, it girl, like, all of these things, and you’re just a lady who was married to a blacksmith and maybe killed him. Maybe killed him, I don’t know! 

Ann: And like, and this is your child. No, it’s really interesting. It’s like with so many celebrities, you know? If you remove all the nepo babies from the discourse, it’s just, like, someone who becomes famous, like Glen Powell, and his mom is just like, “I’m just a mom.” 

Amanda: And like Donna Kelce now gets to hang out with Taylor Swift and is on The Traitors. I don’t know. [laughs]

Ann: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Emma’s mom is like the Donna Kelce of the situation. She’s just like, “Okay, I’m here.” Because she’s right there with her all the time. 

Amanda: Yes. 

Ann: So, these two have an affair. And so, William is kind of like, “Okay, I guess.” Like, he’s fine with it. 

Amanda: “Yeah, that’s fine.”

Ann: He’s just like, “That makes sense. You know, if that makes you happy, Emma, cool. That’s fine.” And then the revolution, the revolutionary uprising happens and the royal family has to flee to Sicily. 

I don’t know how much info you have about Emma’s involvement, but she’s… So, it’s kind of like what you were outlining: tensions are high, the royal family is going to need to flee, and it would have been suspicious if Nelson or if Sir William were seen coming or going from the palace, but Emma, it’s like, “Well, she’s just a woman.” 

Amanda: “She’s the queen’s bestie.”

Ann: Yeah, and the queen is kind of who’s in charge of all this anyway. So, Emma becomes kind of crucial, like coming and going and planning this escape. Not planning it, but like, making sure that it happens; passing along the messages and arranging, like, this ship has to be here. It’s a real Flight to Varennes party bus situation I have to say, because Maria Carolina is like, “We need to flee, but I need to take all of my jewels. I need to take all of my furniture. Can we move more of my jewels?”

Amanda: “My whole royal household.” 

Ann: “What about this chest of coins?” It’s just, like, the amount of ships they need, it’s like, “Ma’am… Flee!” And she’s just like, “But also, I need these jewels and also my crowns, and also, I can’t be without this.” So, Emma is just like, out there…

Amanda: Helping out. Well, and like I mentioned, it’s a weird revolution; it’s also short-lived, so maybe the sense of urgency that she didn’t have was a symptom of this… They rename Naples, the rebels do, the Parthenopean Republic; it’s named that for a former ancient Greek city. And remember, these rebels, revolutionaries, are upper-middle-class to aristocrats [chuckles]. But like, the new Republic exists only because the French military is also in the area. So, that’s why the British diplomat and Sir Nelson, or Lord Nelson, cannot be seen to, like, be helping out the royal family in this case, because Britain and France are already not getting along; they super don’t want to be fighting also in Naples. Like, the English fleet was still supplying the royal family with weapons, but we had to keep it, like, on the DL. And Nelson is the compromise, almost, like, he is there because that’s kind of where he landed after his military victories, and it’s just kind of him. There’s some plausible deniability there. 

The more interesting thing, though, to the British public is, “Well, Emma and Lord Nelson are hooking up, right?” Like, that’s all they kind of want to talk about. So, when they hear about this military conflict, of course, it immediately becomes, “Well, obviously Emma Hamilton persuaded Lord Nelson to intervene and, like, get Britain involved in this military conflict.” So, she’s kind of painted as, like, pulling the strings here, I guess, in a similar way to her bestie, Queen Maria Carolina. 

Ann: And Queen Maria Carolina too, just for the record, through everything we’ve talked about throughout her whole life, she is never not pregnant. She’s popping out babies; she’s having babies. Like, they’re fleeing, and she has just had a baby. 

Amanda: Doesn’t one of her kids die on the ship as they’re fleeing? So, they move the royal household, the royal court, to Palermo in Sicily, and I think one of, I don’t remember which one, but one of Maria Carolina’s children, like, dies in Emma’s arms? 

Ann: Yeah. So, what happens is… I forget the name of the son as well; there’s a lot of sons. So, this was a son who Maria Carolina had had around… The baby was born around the same time Marie Antoinette, news of her execution came out, and Maria Carolina was so overwhelmed by that, like, she couldn’t care for this child. So, Emma almost, like, fostered the child. Emma was like there with the baby, so this was Emma’s special, sort of, I don’t know if it was technically her godchild. But this was now, you know, years have passed, so it’s a young child, but he’s got, you know, lung issues, and then the child dies while they’re on the escape, in Emma’s arms. So, it’s like a lot for her; it’s a lot for everybody. You know, they’re escaping, and I’m like, “Why are you bringing so much stuff with you?” But it’s, like, a legit traumatizing experience for everybody to be… 

Amanda: Yes. 

Ann: And I think also for Maria Carolina, it’s like, her sister, kudos to her because she saw what happened with Marie Antoinette and her husband, where the rebels were coming, and they refused to leave, and then they were taken to jail and killed. And Maria Carolina is just like, “Fuck that, I’m fleeing.” She kept switching room to room. She’s like, “They’re never going to find me. I’ll be in a different room.” Like, she’s understandably preparing for the worst because she’s seen this happen to her sister. 

So, she’s going through it. Everyone’s going through it. Emma is there for her, and she’s instrumental in this escape, and what I want to mention is that Sir William is also there. Sir William is sending letters back to England explaining what happened, but he never mentions how involved Emma was or what she did, which is kind of crucial for later on when Emma is like, “Hey, can I get some pension or money for my services to the Crown?” And they’re like, “We don’t know about anything.” 

Amanda: “What services to the Crown?” 

Ann: Because he made it seem like he did everything. 

Amanda: Sure. Mmm… Mm! And we were rooting for you, Sir William. But she does get some recognition from Emperor Paul I of Russia. Did you see this? So, while the royal family in Naples has been evacuated to Sicily, I guess they’re dealing with their own stuff, so Emma is kind of the one, again, left to deal with other matters that come up during this reverse revolution. So, the island of Malta is, like, being left to starve. I think there’s a military blockade; they’re being targeted by the French as well. And Nelson tries and fails to persuade the king to allow the British to break the blockade, send in supplies. But Emma was able to, like, get supplies to the island of Malta, and she even convinced Maria Carolina to donate 10,000 pounds. 

So, she was eventually awarded the Cross of Saint John or the Maltese Cross by Emperor Paul of Russia, [chuckles] and she notes that “I’m the first English woman to ever get it,” and it made her a dame of the Order of Malta in her own right. So, this is the first time she’s gotten an honour based on her own merit, and she gets her own coat of arms. It’s very cool.

Ann: Yes. She’s Lady Hamilton because she married a lord, but now she herself is a dame. She used Dame when she was just, like, behaving at her very grandest. So, she went from like, December teenage sex worker living on the street to, like, a dame. 

Amanda: Mm-hm! That’s very cool. She gets her own coat of arms. It was noted, I think it was on Wikipedia, it was noted that the coat of arms puzzled heraldic scholars for a long time who didn’t know about her Maltese Cross, because it has the Maltese Cross on it, and they’re like, “Why is this on Emma Hamilton’s coat of arms? The lions we get, there’s three red lions and that’s like, that we get,” because her surname was Lyon when she was born. But they didn’t know for a long time that she had the Order of Malta, which confuses me. But we know now. 

Ann: It’s interesting. Well, and I’m confused that they didn’t know that because she wore it every day. [Amanda giggles] When I was looking up information about her from a few years ago at a Sotheby’s auction, it was one of her necklaces, and part of it has a fastening where the Order of Malta would have hung. She just attached it to her necklaces. She wore it constantly. I don’t know, for listeners who heard the episode we did about Sarah Biffin, the disabled painter, she won a medal for excellence in painting, and she wore it every day of her life. She’s like, “That’s me. I won this medal. I’m just wearing it, every day.” 

Amanda: I support that. 

Ann: And so, this becomes a thing when eventually they’re going to be back in England, and everybody, like, Emma Hamilton shows up, and everyone wants to dress. This is like so many of these things in this era, it’s like we want to dress à la Hamilton. So, people are wearing dresses that look like her dresses, they’re doing their hair like hers. She shows up wearing this cross, people start wearing crosses. People start wearing Malta crosses, including Caroline of Brunswick, the Princess of Wales. 

Amanda: Of course she did. 

Ann: She’s never one to pass up a fashion moment. So, I just love that Emma Hamilton… Yeah. 

Amanda: If she lived in 2008, she would never have passed a Charming Charlie’s or a Claire’s without going in. Like, I love this for her. 

Ann: Yeah, I love that. That’s what’s funny to me. I’m just like, “They didn’t know that she had this cross? She’s painted wearing it, like everyone, caricatures…” Like, she wore this [laughs] every day of her life.

Amanda: [chuckles] Caricatures. Good for her.

Ann: “This is me, and I won this, and I’m a dame, and don’t you forget it.” I love it.

Amanda: Nope. The heraldic scholars were puzzled by the Maltese Cross, I guess. After a while, it kind of fell off. 

Ann: It reminds me… Well, I don’t even know what would be a similar thing, but it’s like if Michael B. Jordan put his Academy Award on a chain and just wore it every day to be, like, “I’m Academy Award actor, Michael B. Jordan.” 

Amanda: Who is it? Is it Kate Winslet that has hers in the bathroom so that her guests can hold it in the mirror while they’re in there? [laughs] 

Ann: That’s a really good idea. I love that. 

Yeah. So, just in terms of the cross. So, when they get back to England, which spoiler, they will in a second, so cheap gilt versions of the cross were sold throughout England. The very wealthiest ladies had their own made of diamonds. Caroline, Princess of Wales, wore a white dress with a Maltese Cross brooch. Prinny gave a diamond Maltese Cross to his youngest sister, Amelia. So, Fanny, Fanny Nelson… So, at this point, imagine! Imagine! This is like when Ariana Grande got together with that guy, SpongeBob, and he left his wife for Ariana Grande, and then, like, the relentless Wicked press, I was just like, “This woman’s had enough hurt.” 

Amanda: Yeah, got to see it everywhere. 

Ann: And you’re going into like, Starbucks, you’re going to everywhere, and it’s just like, “Wicked! Wicked! Ariana Grande.” And it’s like, your husband left you for her, and she’s everywhere. So, it’s like, Fanny’s going through that because everyone is dressing like Emma Hamilton, the woman your husband left you for, and everyone’s got posters of Emma Hamilton. Because Nelson is this hero and Emma is this icon, so now there’s posters of, like, their faces together. You can get, you know, a plate with their faces together. Everyone is just, like, the two of them together is everywhere. Again, justice for Fanny. Like, my gosh. 

Amanda: Yeah. Well, and you know, she would have had some moments of vindication because when this revolution wraps up, again, I cannot stress enough, it took six months. This new republic was established in January 1799; on June 30th, the last stronghold for the Jacobins in Naples fell and surrendered. That July, King Ferdinand re-entered Naples and had Nelson actually oversee the execution of 120 political prisoners, which was seen as really ruthless. Back in London, there were again rumours that Emma was the one encouraging this, or at least, like, acting out the Queen’s vengeance because, remember, Maria Carolina got into this because she’s angry and sad that her sister, Marie Antoinette, has been beheaded by the French. So, you have 120 executed, over 500 more are imprisoned, 288 deported, and 67 people are exiled. I don’t know what deported versus exiled meant at this time, but those are the stats. 

Ann: Also, as though Emma is this, kind of like, Lady Macbeth… 

Amanda: Like, whispering in the ear of Nelson, telling him… Exactly.

Ann: Nelson does what Nelson does. This is what I’ve learned about him from this biography. No one tells Nelson what to do. Like, he’s going to do what he’s going to do. 

I have a quote, actually, you mentioned about Maria Carolina, this is all her vengeance. So, after Marie Antoinette, her sister, was executed, she was, like, beyond… She was so upset about it. She had a portrait of Marie Antoinette in her study, and she wrote on it, “I shall pursue revenge until the grave.” 

Amanda: Oh my god! 

Ann: Like Batman!

Amanda: In, like, lipstick or something probably. 

Ann: Yes! And she did. 

Amanda: Well, that sucks because Maria Carolina’s grandchild, Marie Louise of Austria, later marries Napoleon. So, yikes. Yikes! We’ll have to revisit. [chuckles] 

Ann: I do think, and you suggested this, and I think at some point I’m going to do a Maria Carolina episode because she’s truly the heir to Maria Theresa. Like, this is the daughter. 

Amanda: Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. 

Ann: This is Maria Theresa 2.0. So, they escape with all their stuff, although… Actually, no, the royal family escapes with all their stuff. Sir William and Emma do not bring their stuff with them, which becomes an issue later on because… So, I haven’t mentioned this before, but Sir William is not good with money. Sir William, he’s this diplomat and so you have to spend a certain – like Georgina did – you have to spend a certain amount of money, entertain at a certain level. 

Amanda: Keep up appearances.

Ann: And then Emma also has to have enough, you know, she’s the bestie of the queen, she has to have all these dresses. So, they’re spending a lot of money, and Sir William just assumes he’s going to be repaid by the English government for his services to the Crown. So, he’s spending, assuming he’s going to get money. 

Amanda: That also kind of makes sense as to why he was not only tolerant, but encouraging of Emma and Nelson having an affair because, like, here’s another guy that can start paying for her dresses. [laughs] You know? 

Ann: That’s literally what happens. When they become lovers, Nelson starts covering Emma’s costs, which is how we know Sir William knew about it and was okay with it. But you’re right, you’re right. That saves him a bit of money. 

Amanda: Makes sense. 

Ann: This is just less stuff for them to be able to sell if they are in debt later, which I’m foreshadowing… heavily. 

So, they escape, and then Nelson was recalled to London. So, Sir William had been asking for a while, like, “Can I retire?” He’s like, in his seventies. He’s like, “Can I retire from being…?” 

Amanda: ”Can I be done now?” 

Ann: “This is getting to be a bit much, you know, fleeing this reverse revolution and stuff.” So, the trio, the gang, Sir William, Emma, and Nelson all… 

Amanda: Well… It’s a trio, but also a foursome because Emma’s pregnant. 

Ann: True. Yes. [Amanda laughs] She is pregnant by Nelson. Nelson always wanted children. Like, he married Fanny, and he thought that they would have children, but then she wasn’t able to have children, and that led to some stress in their relationship. Emma, I think, always wanted more children too, but like, Sir William was not able to provide that for her. So, she’s pregnant with Nelson’s baby, and they return to England, and it’s like, “Oh my god, Emma!” And she’s wearing these maternity dresses, and everyone’s like… It’s like a real Regina George moment, like, everyone starts wearing dresses with a waist, the bust line practically at your shoulders. It’s like, yeah, because those are maternity dresses. They’re like, “We have to dress à la Emma,” and they’re all wearing maternity dresses… 

Amanda: That’s so funny. 

Ann: And like, fake Maltese Crosses. 

So, they come back, and she does her “Attitudes” in England. Because, you know, to recap, this is where she’s sort of like, acting out in sort of a fancy charades, different famous people from history, and she’s doing scenes of pregnant women just to show like, “I am pregnant.” So, she’s being like Cleopatra. So, Nelson, one of his big victories was in the Battle of the Nile, in Egypt, so people are really all about that. There was a big crocodile hat craze. Everybody’s just like, “The Nile, he’s a hero! Crocodiles, we love him.” So, she’s really leaning into this Cleopatra, the Nile, and Cleopatra, famously, she was with Julius Caesar, then she was with Mark Antony, so it’s like, he was a war hero, and she was the woman. So it’s… 

Amanda: Yes, there are parallels here. 

Ann: So, she’s doing her attitudes. She’s showing off her pregnant belly, everybody… She’s as famous… She’s more famous than ever, actually. 

Amanda: All of this, though, still doesn’t get her admitted to the royal court. Queen Charlotte once again, she gets a letter, even, from Queen Maria Carolina, writing a letter of recommendation basically for Emma, saying, highlighting all her achievements, saying, “She’s my best friend. Please let her into court,” and this still comes to nothing because Queen Charlotte is just, like, a sleeper, heinous bitch, but kind of tops them all. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah, I know. I can’t emphasize enough how much the real-life Queen Charlotte was not like Queen Charlotte on Bridgerton. 

But meanwhile, Emma is hanging out with, like, Prinny and the other sort of like, party princes. She is friends with everybody. She’s like the toast of society, basically, which is really interesting as this, like, pregnant with her lover’s child, everyone knows it’s Nelson’s child, but she’s married to Sir William, so technically it’s going to be Sir William’s child because that’s her husband. 

Amanda: Right. One person who’s, like, not into it is Fanny. Should we talk about…? Do you know about the living arrangements that we get into here? 

Ann: I do know a bit. I know that eventually for, like… So, Emma and Sir William were living in one house, and Nelson was living in another house. And then Emma was going back and forth so much, it cost so much in transit that they’re like, “Why don’t we just all live in one house together?” And they all move into a house together. 

Amanda: [laughs] Yeah. Well, so when they first came back to England, they were planning to all go to Nelson’s house to live, like, Sir William, Emma and Nelson, but there’s some “miscommunication” that means they don’t go to Nelson’s house where Fanny is; they all have to get rooms at a hotel in London next to each other. Then Fanny comes to London, she meets them there, and that’s when she finds out Emma’s pregnant, and she’s like, obviously deeply, deeply unhappy with this. This is when the affair becomes common knowledge, like, before it had been gossip, it happened in Naples. And then in London, it really takes off. The townhouses, like you said, they’re basically within walking distance, but because Emma is pregnant and an it girl, yes, transportation between the two… But Fanny kind of tries to start a feud in the press with Emma, but Emma, everyone loves her still, even though there was that kind of whispered rumour that she was the one inciting violence in Naples, most of the public still, like, looks upon her very, very fondly. 

Ann: Well, and this is where also, Nelson is trying to separate from Fanny, but Fanny is just like, “No. I do not accept. I am your wife, and I will not leave you.” 

Amanda: She had no allies in the situation because, like we’ve also said, Sir William was cool with the affair, even though at this point, he starts being made fun of in the press and in cartoons, but like, he still is obsessed with Emma, and she is still attached to him, she’s fond of him. So, whatever relationship they have, like, still going strong, even though they are kind of in this love triangle at this point. 

Ann: And Fanny also, because her family… She just doesn’t have any allies, partially because she’s from the Caribbean, like, she doesn’t have family in town, she has no one. And Emma has all friends in high places. Like, it’s an interesting thing because you look at the movie, it’s called That Hamilton Woman with Vivien Leigh and Laurence Olivier, and this is the famous love story is Nelson and Emma, but you kind of have to shove Fanny aside because it’s hard to celebrate a love story when it’s like, there’s this wife who’s also like, “Excuse me!” like, not cool with it. So, you kind of have to villainize her a little bit. 

Amanda: Which Vivien Leigh… It’s weird that she did that twice in Gone With the Wind and That Hamilton Woman. 

Ann: So, Emma, I forgot if I said this before, but I’ll say it again, just like casting Laurence Olivier, Sir Laurence Olivier, as Nelson, this short, one-eyed, one-armed, little guy… Even when they were sort of touring around London, people were like, “Oh my God, it’s Nelson!” And then they saw him, and they’re like, “That’s Nelson? Like, the hunk in all of our drawings.” 

Amanda: Yeah, to package it for Hollywood, it’s got to be a Laurence Olivier, who I think you compared to Jacob Elordi offline. [laughs] 

Ann: Yeah. It’s just kind of like, who’s the tallest, hottest man? Well, and also, this is in an era where, like, trigger warning, Lord Byron, is the most handsome, hot guy, and he is good looking, and so that’s kind of like what people… That’s the ideal. 

Amanda: For a romantic hero, yeah.

Ann: Yeah. And so, Nelson, who is doing these brave things that Lord Byron could only dream of, it’s like, so they assume, well, he must also be handsome. And it’s like, oh, he’s not! He’s just a little, little guy. 

Amanda: Yeah. Lord Byron had the style and, like, desperately wanted the substance, and then Nelson over here has the substance, but one eye, one arm, no teeth. [laughs] 

Ann: And Emma is obsessed with him. 

Amanda: As she should be, you know? You do you, girl. 

Ann: Yeah. They’re in England, and Emma is quite pregnant when they travel, and they go to England, and she has a daughter, who, the daughter is named Horatia after… 

Amanda: Of course. 

Ann: Because his name is Horatio. So, she’s making it really clear, like, “This child is the child of Nelson.” 

Amanda: Mm-hm, you gotta do it. Also, she gives birth on January 29th; she appears at a concert in public on February 1st. My god. Ma’am. You’re allowed to take time off! It’s okay.

Ann: Yeah. That’s a real, like, Kate Middleton giving birth and getting her hair blown out… 

Amanda: On the steps seven hours later. Yeah. 

Ann: Yeah. I think there’s something about… Kate Williams explained this in her biography; it was something like Emma had to show that she was pregnant, and then she had to show up being not pregnant after, for some reason. Like, it’s just to prove to everybody, like “I had a baby.” 

Amanda: Okay. Interesting. 

Ann: She, like, needed to show that this had really happened. I’m not sure, but she made a spectacular appearance. 

Amanda: Yes! At this time, Nelson’s not in London, we should say. He was sent back to sea for some military reason. He and Emma write letters back and forth the whole time. They even talk about her pregnancy and, like, how excited they are. She still keeps her existing daughter a secret from him. 

Ann: Nelson doesn’t know about that, little Emma, because I think there’s something… Even when she gives birth – and this is later on in the story when people are blackmailing her for various reasons – the doctor who was there and she gave birth, like, it was apparent this is not the first time this woman has given birth. And so, she pays them off to not tell Nelson, because Nelson can’t know about this teenage child she had. 

Amanda: Interesting. 

Ann: Yeah. So, she has to keep it hidden away. 

Amanda: So, she gives birth while Nelson’s at sea, and he writes letters explaining the child was an orphan left to his care and protection while they were still back in Naples, so that when Horatia gets baptized, her date of birth is, like, post-dated back to October 1800. So, this infant baby is being paraded around as an 18-month-old child because we need to keep up the appearance that she was born in Naples and, like, Emma and Nelson, out of the goodness of their hearts, adopted her. Like, she was supposedly their godchild. 

Ann: What this reminds me of is, I don’t know if people know this, the story of Clark Gable had a child with an actress in the, like, 1930s who was not married, and she was really Catholic… Loretta Young. So, he and Loretta Young had an affair, and then she had a child, and she was Catholic, so she didn’t get an abortion. She had this daughter, so what she did is she just went off the radar for a while, then she came back, and she’s like, “Hey, I’ve just adopted this baby. I, a single woman, adopted this baby.” She just was like, “I’m a single woman who adopted a baby. That’s just the thing that happens.” 

Amanda: Like Edith in Downton Abbey, tale as old as time. 

Ann: Yes. So, Clark Gable has, or had, these really famous, like, sticking-out ears that were very… And the daughter had sticking-out ears, so Loretta Young always put hats on the daughter, was always trying to hide the daughter’s ears because it was so apparent, like, this is the daughter of Clark Gable. So, this is reminding me of that. .They’re just like, “This is Horatia…” 

Amanda: Humans are so funny. [laughs]

Ann: “… a child we just found. Don’t worry about it.” 

Amanda: “We love her so much.” 

Ann: “Emma was obviously pregnant and now is not pregnant, and there’s a baby, but this is not that baby.” 

Amanda: “Don’t worry about it.” 

Ann: But this is also at the time period where… So, Prinny, George, Prince of Wales. 

Amanda: Yeah, speaking of speaking of women who adopt children that may or may not be their own… [laughs]

Ann: So, Prinny, he becomes obsessed with Emma at this time, and he really wants to get together with her, and he is somebody, sort of like Nelson, he really just throws himself when he gets a crush. He just throws everything at it. And Emma is so monogamous, and she’s so all about Nelson. She’s just like, “This is never going to happen.” 

Amanda: And also, Prinny is gross. Like, no. 

Ann: Prinny is gross. He is a horrifying person who has books covered in human skin, which I talked about last week on the podcast… Two weeks ago. Anyway, so Emma’s just like, “No thanks.” But Nelson knows Prinny’s reputation, and he also thinks, “Well, Emma cheated on her husband with me, so she might cheat on me with this guy.” So, Nelson becomes obsessed with like… 

Amanda: Yeah, very jealous. 

Ann: He’s writing her letters, and all these letters are like, “Don’t have dinner with him. Don’t let him in your house. Don’t see him.” And like, he’s really obsessed with it. But it’s like, it’s the Prince of Wales, and you really want to stay on his good side, and like, Emma and Sir William, they’re Whigs, and that’s the political party that Prinny is involved with. 

So, there’s a situation where Emma is so upset that Prinny has to come over to dinner, and she can’t stop it. She’s weeping, she gives herself a migraine, she’s crying so hard. And so, Sir William writes this letter to Nelson being like, “Dear Nelson, don’t worry. Emma is being faithful to you. Her lover.” 

Amanda: “My wife, your mistress.” [laughs]

Ann: “Don’t worry about it. We have to have the Prince of Wales over for dinner. Emma is so upset about it, but like, don’t worry. It’s fine.” 

Amanda: That’s so funny. 

Ann: It’s an extraordinary situation, yeah. 

Amanda: I’m trying to catch up on my notes here. 

Ann: So, I mean, this is happening. This is as calm as her life ever is, honestly. 

At this point, Nelson buys a home called Merton Place near Wimbledon. When I say buys it, he buys it by borrowing money from his friend; he doesn’t have a lot of money, you know, because he’s, like, from poor origins. Even though he’s a war hero, he gets prize money when he wins a battle or something, but that’s not an income. Sir William is massively in debt because he just assumes the government will pay him back at some point. And Emma just, like, is a woman, and so is not allowed to have her own independent money. So, just again, I’m just laying some track for what’s going to happen later on. 

Amanda: Yeah. But despite having no money… So, he buys Merton Place, and he basically gives Emma a blank cheque book and says, “Decorate, improve the property,” and she takes that directive as, “Okay, I’m going to turn this house into a celebration of Nelson’s genius.” 

Ann: She turns it into, like, Graceland: Nelson Version. [Amanda laughs] The whole place, it’s just Nelson paraphernalia, paintings of Nelson, I feel like Nelson face wallpaper. Everything is just like Nelson! 

Amanda: You’re really putting all your eggs in one basket here. Like, I get the vision, but I liked you better, Emma, when you were, like, doing your “Attitudes” and doing, like, stuff that was a celebration of you. You were so good at this. I hate this for you. I’m so sorry. Although they did, because I said the mom pops up, she gets to move her mom into Merton Place as well. So, mom is still here. Grandmother is also still alive somewhere, I’m pretty sure. 

Ann: So, everyone is just… They’re living to— Sir William is living there, Emma’s living there, and Nelson, like, when he’s not off doing Navy things, he’s living there. So, it’s just kind of like this… 

Amanda: Another little ménage-a-trois situation. 

Ann: I know, it’s interesting because we did the Georgiana, like Bess and her husband thing. And now it’s kind of like, this is a happier one because Sir William is, like, cool with it. 

Amanda: There’s less jealousy for sure… Yeah, I don’t know. 

Ann: And this also just fascinates the public too, that they’re all living… The public is like, “What is going on here? Why are they living together?” But it’s like, Nelson is the hero; Emma is like, the sex symbol of the time. 

Amanda: And then there’s Sir William. [laughs]

Ann: Sir William, also there, in his seventies at this point. And he’s ill, you know, he passes away in 1803. He dies in Emma’s arms. And this changes a lot of things. So, he dies, leaving a lot of debts because again, he kept assuming the government would pay him back for services rendered, and they never did. And you couldn’t leave an estate to a woman usually. So, the estate goes to— Do you remember, throwing it back to episode one, Greville? The nephew who was her lover before. So, that is who’s going to inherit everything is that guy. 

Amanda: But Sir William does kind of provide for her with an annuity in his will. So, like, an allowance. It’s supposed to be £800 pounds, which would roughly be £106,000 or 142,000 US dollars today, which is nothing to sneeze at if she’s able to get it, which again, is another matter. 

Ann: That’s the thing because people… Yeah, who’s the executor of the estate? And things like that. So, what a woman in this situation would usually do is get married again pretty quickly because you need, like, for financial reasons, you need a protector. Like a woman, it’s so hard to do… 

Amanda: And that’s on paper, you’re supposed to get that money, but it kind of depends on what the people, like you said, running the estate actually decide to follow through on. 

Ann: Yeah. So, Emma, she does not— She gets immediately so many marriage proposals because she is like the Marilyn Monroe of her time. Everyone’s just like, “Oh my God, this goddess is single! I want it.” But she’s holding off to wait to see… She wants to marry Nelson. Like, she’s a one-man gal. So, she’s just waiting. She’s like, “Well, if Fanny dies, Nelson and I can get married.” 

Amanda: Fanny’s still around. [laughs]

Ann: I mean, here’s a spoiler: Fanny is the longest-lived of anyone in this story. Fanny, I think, outlives Horatia. So, she’s still in love with Nelson. I think even if she thinks, even if Fanny doesn’t die, she thinks, like, Nelson’s going to get rich from winning, from prize money, from winning more battles, and he will support her, she believes. Can we just pause and talk about her, like, optimistic outlook on life? She just believes the best of people… 

Amanda: She does! 

Ann: … in a way that’s sweet, but like, not smart. 

Amanda: Yeah, she chooses to believe everything will all work out. I think that is partly because it’s worked for her so far. Like, she’s gotten this far because of her beauty and her natural gifts. But once she’s back in London, it’s so interesting, society is the thing that makes that not always work. 

So yeah, she’s holding out for Nelson to become single, marry her. But in the meantime, she still has to support herself. She has this – well, she has two daughters – she has to make ends meet; she has built this house, decorated this house, now that bill is coming due. So, she does a couple of things. She continues to display her “Attitudes,” which I find interesting, even though, at this point, most contemporary accounts say that, like, she’s passed her prime, which I hate. One audience member wrote that “She is bold and unguarded in her manner, is grown fat and drinks freely.” 

Ann: So, it’s like, this was cute when she was 20, but now that she’s 35… 

Amanda: Yeah, and even Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun, she comes to visit her in 1802, and remarks that after her husband’s death, I guess the next year, she “Did not seem convincingly moved by her husband’s death and had grown horribly fat.” The last time they had met was in Naples when Nelson was, like, just beginning to pull Emma into his orbit. 

Ann: It’s like, you know when you see people nowadays who are like, “What happened to this actor?” It’s like, she aged. 

Amanda: Yeah, it’s the progression of time. 

Ann: I forget if it was Britney Spears’s memoir or someone’s memoir that I read, where they’re just like, “I’m sorry, when did I promise to look the same as I did at 17 for the rest of my life?”

Amanda: Yeah. Or like, Renée Zellweger has talked about this too, I think, because she is one where, like, they started to do the reboots of Bridget Jones, and everyone’s like, “Eugh! What happened?” It’s like, “I’m older now. I don’t know.” 

Ann: So, the fact that, like Brooke Shields, Emma became so famous and so well-known for her beauty when she was a teenager…

Amanda: And she’s preserved in all these paintings, which, famously, you know, are a frozen moment in time. That’s what people were used to seeing. 

Ann: So, people… You know, when any actor goes away for a bit and then comes back, it’s like, there’s the new I Know What You Did Last Summer, and Jennifer Love Hewitt was on the red carpet, everyone’s like, “[gasps dramatically] What? What?” It’s like, yeah, she aged because she’s a person and she doesn’t look like she did, and I Know What You Did Last Summer, 25 years ago, like people are… When you don’t see a celebrity for a long time and then you do, it is, it’s like, “Oh!” It’s kind of startling because you imagine that they don’t change, but it’s like, oh, no, they’re people. 

Amanda: They’re people. They’re people too. 

Ann: So, all things that are like, “Oh, Emma. She got fat.” It’s like, maybe she did, but like… 

Amanda: She had a stable home life for the first time in her existence, too. Like, let’s not forget. 

Ann: She’s had two children, like… 

Amanda: Yeah, yeah. But she’s also trying to win over Nelson’s family. So, his father comes to Merton House… What is it? Merton Place. She nurses him for 10 days and, like, thought about moving in with Emma and Nelson, but she also connected herself to Nelson’s sisters; she babysits their kids and gives them money, which, like, you should not be doing, girl! Worry about yourself. But she’s also, I think, trying to court and ingratiate herself there. 

Ann: One of her things that she always did, like, as soon as she had access to money or credit, she gave to the poor. She was always very philanthropic, and it was often going to, like, the Magdalene Sisters or, like, to women in trouble, or orphan children. She had a really philanthropic— But she just did not fundamentally understand how money worked, and there’s lots of reasons for that. Part of it is because people just kept being like, “Sure, spend whatever you want.” She didn’t have to learn that; she didn’t know that she would ever need to know that. So, she just kind of thought she had limitless funds, and she spent as though she did, on both herself and also on giving to the poor. 

It’s like such a toxic people pleaser personality. She’s like, “Oh, I’ll nurse this person back to health, and I’ll give this person all this money.” There’s one point where she… Like, she always had a household staff, and at some point she was hiring a new whatever, housekeeper or something, and she was told by Sir William, like, “Yeah, just pay whatever you think is fair,” and then she paid above market value. Like, she just wanted to be generous to everybody because she needed everybody to love her. It kind of, like, tips over from being like, “She’s a kind, sweet person,” to being like, “Oh, this is pathological, actually.” 

Amanda: And this is why, ladies, if your husband tells you he wants to handle financials and you can just be a traditional woman in the home and you don’t have to worry about anything, do not listen to him. You need to know these skills because what if he dies? What if something happens? That’s not a spoiler; this is history. [laughs] 

Ann: Yeah. You need to have your own bank account. You need to have credit. Ladies! 

Amanda: Savings, yeah. 

Ann: It’s such a cautionary tale, like, she’s living this fabulous life, but she never knew that it was because Sir William was in massive debt constantly, and then he died, leaving all this debt, and then it’s like, “Well, that’s nothing to do with me. I’ll just keep spending the way that I did.” 

Amanda: And like, a part where you can kind of see that also is her daughter, Emma, the first one. Sir William was taking care of her upkeep, and before that, it was Greville. Now that Sir William is dead, this is when Emma finally has to tell Nelson about her first daughter. Luckily, that goes well. She has nothing to worry about; he loves baby Emma, who is now, I guess, adult Emma 2.0. She comes to stay with them sometimes, and he did assume financial responsibility for her. So, this poor girl got passed off to different men to be financially responsible for her. 

Ann: And everything’s going great, and then Nelson dies. 

Amanda: Yeah. He gets called off to the Napoleonic Wars in 1803. 

Ann: So, he died at Trafalgar. If you go to London, there’s Trafalgar Square; this is all named after Nelson, because it was a battle that, ultimately, the British won, but he died in it. And one of the reasons he died in it, I don’t know if you know this detail, was because they were on… You know, it’s like, ship versus ship sort of battle, and there’s smoke from all the oldey-time muskets and stuff, and they’re like, “Sir Nelson, could you take all the sparkling star medals off of your jacket?” And he’s like, “No! I’m Nelson. I’m going to wear all my star medals.” It’s like Emma wearing her Cross of Malta. So, then he gets shot because he’s so visible, because he threw all these sparkling, glittering things. 

Amanda: So, was he a military genius? Like, was he? 

Ann: Friends, was he? 

Amanda: Was he? 

Ann: So, he ends up getting shot in the spine, and he dies. And as he dies, he’s like, “Tell Emma I love her,” or something. But you know what he didn’t do? Put her in his will. 

Amanda: Yeah. Well, also, sorry, before we get to that, because things unravel from there, they had a second baby also. 

Ann: Oh, yes! So, she was pregnant again. 

Amanda: When he left. Yeah, when he left for the Napoleonic Wars, she was pregnant, though neither knew it at that time. And she’s at home frantically redecorating, trying to make it into something that he can come home to, and she gives birth to a second child with Nelson, also reportedly named Emma. There’s not really great records about this baby. She dies at six weeks old. 

Ann: Yeah. I don’t know if the baby was born early or… But it’s just olden times, infant mortality, et cetera, et cetera. So, this is very devastating because, obviously, the death of a child, and also… They had a child, baby Emma died. Nelson comes back for 25 days, and Emma is just like, “I hope to get pregnant again to help me get past this, and also, it would be great to have a son,” because that would just be good for inheritance and stuff. She does not get pregnant again. Nelson goes off to the Battle of Trafalgar and dies. So, his will said something like, “I trust that the government will provide for Emma Hamilton.” Like, not good enough, guy. The government? Prinny? 

Amanda: The British government, yeah. Famously. 

Ann: Yeah. They didn’t give… They don’t have any money, first of all, because Prinny… 

Amanda: And he also, [sighs] unfortunately, there’s that part of it. He’s writing, basically, the Crown should give Emma “ample provision to maintain her rank in life” because of his achievements for the British Navy. They haven’t been paying him so far, and he’s just hoping that they’re going to pay his mistress in lieu of all of the stuff he thinks he’s owed while he’s still alive. But this is a note that isn’t legally witnessed; he intends it to be a codicil to his will, but it isn’t, you know? It’s his intention, absolutely. 

Ann: He was living like he was immortal. He went off to battle constantly, but he never thought he was going to die, so he never really made plans. And he just sort of, like her, they’re both sort of just toxic optimists where they’re just like, “It’ll work out!” And it’s like, “Dude, no! This is not…” So, Sir William’s dead; she inherited not much from him, considering he had lots of debts as well that have to be paid off. Nelson dies, and she gets an annuity… 

Amanda: Well, she’s supposed to. 

Ann: She’s supposed to. But she also just, like, doesn’t get it. She keeps throwing parties, redecorating, spending money. 

Amanda: I hate that we see this time and again from these women. 

Ann: I know. It’s like Madame du Barry-type vibes where it’s just like, “This is not…” But there’s no one around to be like, “Mmm…” Or if there are people, to tell her just like, “Girl!” 

Amanda: Or Georgiana who, her creditors don’t press that hard to be repaid, so she can just still go to another creditor and rack up even more debt, because nobody really talks about it openly. 

Ann: Well, that’s the thing, no one talks about money, and Emma is living in an echelon. At this point, Georgiana is dead, but similar to her, it’s just kind of like, everyone’s throwing parties, everyone has credit, no one talks about it. But someone like Georgiana, even with the mess of debt she had, she had family connections, eventually, someone was able to pay all that, but Emma doesn’t have any of that. Like, you could live as an independent woman – because she’s not married, she doesn’t have a lover at this point – if you had independent family wealth, but she has nothing. Like, she was the daughter of a blacksmith. She’s living the way that her friends are living, so she assumes that it’s all just going to… 

Amanda: And she’s banking on future promises of wealth that, like, no one has actually promised her. She’s just assumed “I’m going to marry Nelson when his wife dies,” which, like, doesn’t happen, “and he’s going to win all of this prize money in battle,” which doesn’t happen because he dies. So, that’s really sad. And I mean, to make it even worse, she’s not allowed to go to Nelson’s funeral because they’re not married, she’s a mistress. And like, she had wanted to sing some song for the service. 

Ann: He had wanted her to sing at the wedding because she had this beautiful singing voice. 

Amanda: And like, nobody cares! 

Ann: Well, and it’s such a downfall for her. She went from, like, the toast of the town to suddenly, it’s just like, “Oh yeah, because you weren’t married to Nelson, actually, you get nothing.” And she’s got all these friends, and so one of the reasons she keeps spending money is to, like, host parties and go to parties, to make these connections with people like Prinny and the princes, who she thinks can influence to get her money. Like, she throws all her eggs in the basket of like, she thinks that Prinny is going to… 

Amanda: But they’re all in debt too, like famously! 

Ann: Yeah. So, she just thinks that, like, by being friends with these people and keeping up with them, they will help support her, but they do not. And eventually, she starts just selling stuff to pay some of her creditors, eventually has to sell off a lot of her Nelson memorabilia. Eventually, eventually she ends up having to sell Merton, the house, which she does not get as much money for as she thought she would because… 

Amanda: The Nelson fad has kind of passed. 

Ann: It’s so tacky; no one wants to buy Nelson Graceland. 

Amanda: Graceland, yeah. [laughs] 

Ann: It’s kind of like the sale… What is it? I don’t know. You know, all those shows where they’re like, you make the house look nice so people will buy it? Like, it doesn’t have the curb appeal. But she still keeps some stuff with her. I find this really fascinating. So, she goes into… So, debtors’ prison is a place where people go. 

Amanda: Literally debtors’ prison. Well, also because she keeps, even though she’s spending and she doesn’t quite get it, she can’t really live the same lavish lifestyle she’s accustomed to. She also still gives out charity and handouts. And even at one point, Nelson’s brother, who was the executor of his estate and refuses to give Emma her pension that she’s entitled to by his will, he comes for a handout from her at one point. And like, she still helps the sisters take care of their children. It’s like, this family is taking such advantage of her. Eugh!  

Ann: And everybody, up until she lands in debtors’ prison, all of society assumes she’s rich. Part of this is because they just, everyone, like her, it seems like, “Well, she was Nelson’s mistress, I’m sure she was being taken care of.” It’s like, by who? She’s not. But she’s also going to parties and wearing new jewels and stuff, so she’s acting like she’s rich, so people assume she’s rich, so people are coming to her for handouts and stuff. During the midst of this… Her first run in debtors’ prison, she’s not like, in a cell. There’s – I didn’t know about this. Do you know about this? It’s like a neighbourhood. So, there’s, like, apartments they live in called “the Rules.” 

Amanda: To, I guess, keep up the appearances again, like, because we don’t talk about money. [laughs] I don’t know.

Ann: So, it’s sort of like these houses near where debtors’ prison is, and you can live in one of these apartments as long as you don’t leave a certain perimeter. So, it’s like, you’re in debtors’ prison, but you’re living, like, in a house. She moved into one of these apartments with her daughter, Horatia, and she’s got this beautiful furniture, and her silver cutlery, and her china. It’s like, “Bitch, what? Why don’t you sell these things?” 

Amanda: That’s a great setup. 

Ann: So, people like the princes, like Prinny’s buddies, come by to dinner parties. They’re like, “Oh, I had a nice time at her house.” 

Amanda: It’s like, how about we focus on paying your debt so you can get out of debtors’ prison? Which, the whole concept of debtors’ prison was always so funny to me. Like, you’re in debt, so I’m going to keep you here in prison so you can’t make money to pay off my debt. But when it comes to these genteel, like, aristocratic prisoners, you’re still clinging to that link to society, keeping up appearances. It’s like, that is preferable to them to the alternative, which is like, back on the street in London in December, selling your body for money. Like yeah, I get it. I do get that a little bit. 

Ann: Yeah. Like, her daughter Horatia went from, like, the toast of the town, living in Merton, having this amazing life, to suddenly living in this dingy, like, slum neighbourhood. It was shocking. This is how your mother grew up, but this is not the life that Horatia has ever lived before. 

So, at some point while she’s living in debtors’ prison apartment complex… She’s also a hoarder, which I think you can guess by my description of her belongings. She is a hoarder, and she is really disorganized. She moved from Merton, to an apartment, to somewhere else, to debtors’ prison, and she kind of loses track of stuff. One of the things she loses track of is her letters from Nelson, which end up being published in the newspapers, and kind of ruins both of their reputations because these are the letters Nelson was sending where he was like, “God damn it! Are you fucking the Prince of Wales? I hate that guy!” Like, it kind of… 

Amanda: Yeah. And she would write about Fanny, his wife, and how she… She, like, isn’t very sly about it. She talks about how she hopes she’ll die so that she can marry Nelson. She wrote in one of the letters, I just loved this quote, “I am ever your affectionate Emma,” and then she adds at the end, “I would say Emma N, but I am afraid such happiness and honour is not in store for me for she,” meaning Fanny, “will never burst.” [laughs] It’s like, “God damn it! Why isn’t she dying?” So yeah, the public now can see this peak behind the curtain; the mystique is kind of ruined when these letters are published. 

Ann: It’s not the beautiful— Not that it was ever beautiful, but people were shipping this, but now, like, to see… 

Amanda: You have that idea of the like romantic, capital R, Romantic, pairing. 

Ann: And now they both just kind of look like trashy bitches. [Amanda chuckles] So, the thing is, like, this ruins the reputation more. And this makes, this is sort of a… This makes Prinny be like, “Well, I’m never going to give you money now because you’re a disgraced person.” But also, it’s, like, Emma could have made money if she had sold those letters, but somebody else made money by selling them on her behalf. So, it’s like, she didn’t have the business sense to think that those were valuable things that she could make money off of. 

So, things are going badly for her. She has a couple of friends who… There’s this one money lender, and then there’s a guy who’s, like, the alderman of the neighbourhood where the Rules is, who just kind of feels bad for her. He sort of helps her sell some stuff, like, he buys some things from her. His name is Joshua Smith, shout out to Joshua Smith. Then, he eventually helps her flee, because it’s just like, what are you going to do? 

Amanda: Iconic of her. This is very Vanity Fair, like, at the end, where Reese Witherspoon ends up in, I think it’s Germany, working in a casino. Emma flees to France with Horatia. She has £50 in her purse, but still takes very expensive apartments at Dessein’s Hotel. 

Ann: Well, the creditors will not lend to her, so she’s just like… 

Amanda: Yeah. She, again, hires a whole staff, a housekeeper, other servants, like, throws parties, maintains a social life, and eventually the debts catch up with her. So, she has maybe a year where she can fudge it in France, like Anna Delvey kind of lifestyle. 

Ann: Yeah. But she can’t pull it off; she’s not that… 

Amanda: She’s not malicious. 

Ann: No, she just doesn’t get it. Well, at this point, I think it’s sort of a purposeful, not being realistic. 

Amanda: Let’s just pretend it’s not an issue, and maybe everything will be fine. 

Ann: Yeah. Just like, this sort of wishful thinking. But also, she ultimately has got various health issues. Sir William eventually died of what was probably dysentery that he probably picked up in Naples, and then Emma seems to have similar symptoms. So potentially, she got a similar virus and her time in debtors’ prison and stuff exacerbated this; she gets liver problems. Like so many people in this era, she’s self-medicating with laudanum, which is a mixture of opium mixed with alcohol. And you mentioned before, like, she’s a heavy drinker. 

Amanda: She’s drinking, yeah. 

Ann: So, she has a slow and, like, Horatia is there witnessing this, but she slowly dies over a couple of weeks. 

Amanda: Yeah. They moved to this cheap apartment, they’re in France. But this is ten years after Nelson has died. He dies in 1805, Emma dies in 1815, so that’s ten years just living in slow decline. 

Ann: And that’s age, like, 39 to 49. She’s 49 when she passes away, and it’s just sort of like, when she dies, the obituaries are all kind of making fun of her as being this great whore, this kind of person who’s… She’s not well remembered. She’s buried in France. I think I have this. Or do you have this? 

Amanda: She converted to Catholicism, so she gets buried in a churchyard in France. Her grave was destroyed in wartime destruction. Which war? I’m not sure. There would have been several. But there is today a memorial to her that was unveiled in 1994. 

Ann: In France. 

Amanda: Mm-hm, in the Parc Richelieu. 

Ann: Sir William was buried with his first wife, and then Nelson was buried in this huge thing. 

Amanda: Oh yeah, it’s awful. 

Ann: Yeah, it’s huge. 

Amanda: You have to look up at it. [laughs] 

Ann: I know for this, like, little tiny man, it’s a really big monument. Actually, I just remembered. I was looking back at my notes, and I realized I didn’t tie it all back. So, just to end this with a fun anecdote, this tragic end of the story. So, remember her friend Jane, who they were maids together? 

Amanda: Yes. 

Ann: Jane Powell, so she became a famous actress. And so later, when everyone was still alive, Emma would go to the theatre with Nelson and Fanny. So, Fanny would sit on the left, and Emma would sit on the right of Nelson, so she was on his side that didn’t have the arm, so she could help feed him and stuff. And everybody in London loved watching them; it’s like “Oh my god! Look at this famous love triangle.” And so, her friend Jane was performing in this play, and probably, she and Jane had schemed to do this together. So, there’s one line in the play where Jane’s character says something about, like, an injured woman, and she pointed directly at Fanny in the audience [Amanda laughs], and everyone was just like, “Oh fuck, whaaaat?!” Fanny faints, she’s so upset by this. She has to be, like, carried out. 

Amanda: Wow. I love that. 

Ann: That’s the iconic moment when they get back together. 

Amanda: I have one follow-up question, which, actually, my husband brought up yesterday. We were watching a movie, and there’s a murder and the heroine faints, and he asked me, he’s like, “Was fainting a real thing, or was everyone just pretending?” Do you have any insight on that? [laughs] 

Ann: I think… Mmm.  

Amanda: We might have to look into this. 

Ann: I think… Well, obviously fainting is a real thing. But I do think that this could be a way to get a person out of an awkward situation. 

Amanda: Right. Because it always seems to be, you know, the well-bred, wispy, white woman, or whatever, like, fainting. [laughs] 

Ann: I think it would be too hard to take the well-bred, wispy white woman in her corset, who maybe hasn’t been eating well all day, to tip it from being like, “Oh my god, I’m so upset,” to just like, “I’m just going to topple over now.” 

Amanda: “I can’t. I just can’t.” [laughs]

Ann: Yeah. I remember Princess Lamballe? She had some sort of like, health issue where she kept fainting, and then people thought she was faking, but she actually had an actual health concern. 

Amanda: So, like, some people might have been faking if they thought she was. Maybe it’s a mix. 

Ann: Yeah. I think, honestly, people do faint, obviously. 

Amanda: Yes. 

Ann: But I do think back in the day, this was probably a way to get out of an awkward situation, that you could just be like, [dramatic groan]. 

Amanda: Yeah, that makes sense.

Ann: Like, this happened to Fanny. This actress pointed at her, calling her out in front of everybody. 

Amanda: Yeah, exactly. 

Ann: Fanny’s just like, “Get me out of here,” like a panic attack, you know? 

Amanda: Yeah. I’m thinking of, like, in Gone with the Wind, another Vivien Leigh reference, she has Aunt Pittypat, who famously, like, every five minutes, “Oh, my smelling salts!” And sometimes she can recover if someone’s like, “Stop being so silly. Here’s actually what’s going on,” and she’s like, “Oh, okay. That’s fine.” [laughs] 

Ann: I don’t know. I think it’s also something that, like, it would be in so many novels that people would want to behave like the characters who they hear about. And it just… I don’t know. Listeners from the health profession, are you a historian of fainting? I’m sure someone’s listening. 

Amanda: Someone should be. That could be a fun book. 

Ann: Someone always is. When I have a question in the podcast, there’s always someone. And you know, in England, there’s so many people who are experts on so many weird, specific things. 

Amanda: Like one specific thing. 

Ann: “I’m a historian of exercise in the 1930s,” like, I’m sure you are, sir. I’m sure someone will be like, “I’m an expert in fainting in the…” Actually, you know what? Everybody was on so much opium, I think fainting could be… 

Amanda: They were all just barely conscious all the time. 

Ann: Yeah. Everyone was, like, drinking so much and the laudanum of it all and just, like, untreated every disease, bloodletting was so common, I think probably fainting was more common. That’s my theory. 

So, we need to give Emma Hamilton a score, and I’m very looking forward to this conversation. There’s four categories— If you’re new to this podcast, at the end of a biographical episode, we have four categories where we score the people, and then I see where that puts them in the pantheon on what we call the Fredegund Memorial Scandaliciousness Scale. 

The first category is Scandaliciousness. How scandalous…? I think she’s a 10. How is she not a 10? 

Amanda: A 10. 

Ann: Only because she didn’t murder anyone, but she wanted to. 

Amanda: People acted like… People assumed she did, actually. They made it up, but they thought she did, and that added to her novelty. Yeah, she was making waves in Britain when she wasn’t even there; she was living in Naples and still making headlines in London. Just because she and Nelson were in the same place at the same time. I think, yeah, 10 out of 10, Scandaliciousness, and she owned it. 

Ann: Starting from the very beginning, being the Goddess of Health and Hymen, then doing… Just posing for portrait paintings like she did, not as like, “This is a portrait of so-and-so,” but like, “Here’s my nude body,” that was shocking. And there’s no era of her life where she wasn’t scandalizing somebody. 

Amanda: And just talking about her life, you’re kind of on the edge of your seat, waiting to see what she does next at every turn. 

Ann: Yeah. And the Scandaliciousness category, I just want to explain for people, this is like, how scandalous did she seem to people at the time? And how scandalous does she seem to us now? I think it’s still a 10 out of 10. This is like— 

Amanda: That’s the whole reason she’s famous, basically. 

Ann: Yeah. Oh, the movie, the Vivien Leigh movie, is called That Hamilton Woman. She’s just famous. Towards the end of the Kate Williams biography, in the final chapter, she’s talking about when she was writing this book in the early 2000s, which 20 years ago, but people still think similarly now, she was just casually mentioned in conversation, she’s at a party, and someone’s like, “Oh, she must have been a good fuck.” This is what people think of her. It’s just like, “Oh yeah, well, she was a whore.” 

Amanda: She’s understood within the context of her Scandaliciousness. 

Ann: Exactly. And on this show, we reward that, we don’t demonize that. 

The next category is Schemieness. And this is like, I don’t want to take away from her moves she made to move up in the world and take advantage of opportunities, but she could have been more schemey. 

Amanda: Yeah. I was thinking about this… She was good at scheming on everybody else’s behalf. Not for herself, as we just talked about, but think about her different eras. Schemed the Neapolitan royal family into exile and helped the island of Malta break a famine. She tried to scheme in London for her future. If that had worked, if she had bided her time and Nelson hadn’t died in the war and Fanny… It was more, like, circumstances worked against her. She was schemey enough that I’m willing to reward her. It’s not a 10, for sure. 

Ann: No, it’s not. Like, had only she been more schemey, her life might have turned out better. But I think even just, like, being, you know, going from having the schemieness to know like, “Okay, like I’m a sex worker on the street. I have this opportunity for this Health and Hymen…” 

Amanda: And seize the opportunity. 

Ann: Going to Kelly’s, and then being able to be the one chosen. Maybe she was chosen because she was the prettiest, but then when she was doing that summer bachelor party, like, to be able to turn that into Greville paying her… She was able to… These are active things she did. Like, she was put into a situation, partially because she’s pretty, but then she schemed to further herself. 

Amanda: To turn it into something. I would agree with that. Like she could have… 

Ann: She was always moving up. 

Amanda: Her life could have just been like the show Harlots, which I think we referenced in the first part of this. Like, she could have entered Mrs. Kelly’s, and that would have been her life, but it wasn’t because I think she was an active participant in the events of her life at that time. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah. So, it’s tricky. 

Amanda: 7?

Ann: I think a 7 is fair. Like, I do think that she… I wish that she… I think she was as schemey as she could have been inherently with the life she lived and what… 

Amanda: Yeah, for the person she was. 

Ann: I wish that she had had someone with her who could have like… She was so good at learning languages and dances. Like, if she had some with her, who could teach her how to do finances, that would have been… 

Amanda: And maybe if she had stayed in, like, Maria Carolina’s orbit, things could have gone very differently for her. But once she went back to London, everything kind of fell apart. 

Ann: Yeah. Well, and that’s just like the Nelson of it all. It’s like, “Oh, this great love story.” I’m like, no. 

Amanda: It’s not enough. 

Ann: She was stigmatized, and this guy sucks. 

Her Significance. I think this is interesting because she is like the most painted person. 

Amanda: At the time, and that’s just the beginning. 

Ann: Yeah. She’s got so many iconic portraits. When you look up Emma Hamilton, like, there’s so many portraits of her. And then Kate Williams is looking at kind of like… Even before Romney, when she was like, not at Mrs. Kelly’s, for that month she was on the street, she did some freelance modelling work as well, just as a way to make money. And so, Kate Williams was like…

Amanda: Yeah, people were always kind of taking note. 

Ann: “This painting kind of looks like her, this kind of looks like her” It’s like, you know the famous painting by Henry Fuseli, The Nightmare, of the woman lying backwards, and there’s like a little demon on her. Kate Williams theorizes, like, that might have been Emma because it kind of looks like her. Like there’s so many… If you look at paintings that are not identified as her, you’re like, “That looks like her. That looks like her.” She’s all over art history. 

Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun did this famous painting of her as the Sybil, and she’s wearing a turban. This is the painting – in the Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun episode, we talked about this – Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun travelled around Europe with this painting as, like, her business card to be like, “Look, I’m a good painter. See this?” Because that was like what she considered her best-ever work. So, I feel like her significance to art history is pretty major. She’s like a quasi-famous… People at least have heard of her. 

Amanda: Mm-hm, there’s a movie. And I mean, she did significantly influence politics during that brief revolution in Naples; I keep coming back to that. [chuckles]

Ann: You know, Nelson was there doing stuff, Sir William was there. But had she not been there, like, that could have all played out differently. So, it’s like, you don’t know her impact because it all kind of worked out okay, but if she had not been there, it could have worked out worse. I don’t know! Her Significance, I feel like it’s a 6 or a 7. 

Amanda: I was thinking 6 or 7 as well. I’m trying not to, like, let the fact that she kind of had those 10 years at the end of her life where she just was on the slow decline influence… Because even Horatio, her daughter, we didn’t get to talk about her at the end, but like, eventually, she never publicly mentions her mother, but she does adopt the surname Nelson, and name her first child Horatio Nelson. So, just because people at the end of Emma’s life wrote her off, doesn’t take away from her significance. 

Ann: Yeah. The Horatia thing is interesting because she, I think cannily, I think she kind of knew, like, Nelson was… There’s this big tomb, “That’s the war hero, and that’s my father,” but like, Emma is just like, we just don’t… Her memory was so ruined by the letters and then by her dying a pauper and everything. It’s just too bad that… Because Horatia was there with her, like, Emma was a really hands-on mom as much as she could be. Clearly, they had a close connection, and Horatia had to kind of cut her off and pretend like she didn’t know that was her mother. 

Amanda: And that’s why you have a Sexism Bonus on this show. [laughs] But for Significance… 

Ann: Let’s say 6.5. Well, because I also said like, “Oh, she’s well-known.” I’m like, I had heard the name, but I didn’t really know this story. And I kind of just knew Nelson, but I confused him with Wellington. I’m like, “That’s that war guy. Emma Hamilton, maybe I’ve heard of her.” So, even to me, before I did all this research, she was not super well-known, but she is to British people. 

Amanda: Within the context. 

Ann: Okay, so the Sexism Bonus. I have two prongs of this. The Sexism Bonus, for those who may not know, this is where we give extra points because how much did sexism hold them back? How much more might they have been able to accomplish? A 10 out of 10 Sexism, historically, has been somebody who, like, had an affair, and then was locked in a tower, and then died because that held them back a lot. 

So, for her, like on the— Okay, so the two major things to me for her, in terms of Sexism Bonus, is the sex work, sex trafficking, Epstein Island, teenage years, that that was her only option. But then, conversely, she turned that into opportunity. 

Amanda: Yes, but nnhh? [sighs] 

Ann: But then, the other part of the sexism is how much she was demonized for her relationship with Nelson, and how she wasn’t able to inherit money, how she couldn’t have a bank account. So, I feel like, as a young person, it affected her. 

Amanda: Yeah. Like, even though she grew out of it and succeeded, like we’ve said, there was probably a lot of trauma there, and if she did have that secret first child before she even knew Greville or Nelson, like, that’s a whole other thing that we just don’t even know how she was feeling. And then, at the end of her life, her position really does depend on her proximity to men, and like, they’re the ones not upholding promises, and kind of putting her down. Like, she’s good as a society hostess and, like, a curiosity, but not much else. Her options become very, very limited once the men she’s connected to are out of the picture, which I hate. 

Ann: Yeah, I hated that she… Before she was in debtors’ prison, like, she was spending money, she was going to parties just so she could see and be seen to meet people who could maybe… She thought these people were her friends. 

Amanda: She’s still giving them charity and handouts. 

Ann: She’s giving them money, but then they won’t support her. It’s like, she thinks the best of people. Like, I think she’s fucked over… 

Amanda: Is it an 8 or a 9? 

Ann: I think this is really high because just what happened to her… It’s tricky because there’s been stories of people who we’ve done on this podcast who were courtesans or sex workers, and it’s like, “Well, that’s society, and so they used this, but then they were able to thrive.” Like Peg Plunkett, she was a brothel owner. She was a sex worker turned brothel owner, and it’s like, sexism didn’t really work against her because she was able to make a career of it. 

Amanda: She gamed the system. 

Ann: Yeah. But I don’t see Emma gaming the system so much.

Amanda: No, I mean, she’s still iced out of she’s still iced out of the British court. Like, she’s never accepted fully. 

Ann: Yeah. So, I think it’s a really high Sexism Bonus. Part of that comes from the first part of her life, but a lot of it comes from the end years, where it’s just like, she was completely fucked over by primogeniture and, like, only men could inherit, and the fact she had daughters. 

Amanda: Like, Sir William got permission from the king to marry her, but then Queen Charlotte wouldn’t let her into society. It’s like, “But your husband is in the privy council. You’re fine with him being married to her, but not actually her.” 

Ann: It makes me… Like, when I was reading the biography, I forget if I said in this episode or the previous one where I was like, I borrowed it from the library, the e-book, and it was due, and I was like, “Well, I’m sure the story is going to wrap up soon.” Just like the fact that she was struggling for ten years, and it just kept getting worse and worse. I’m just like, how is this going to end? 

Amanda: Are you looking up comparison points on past Sexism Bonuses? 

Ann: I’m just adding up what this total would be. So, it’s a 32.5, which, anything above 30 on the show is quite significant. 32.5. I’m just entering her here to see where this puts her in terms of this series. Actually, in terms of this era, Mary Wollstonecraft has a 32, and I think… 

Amanda: Oh! 

Ann: And the two of them never overlapped, as far as I know, but I think they also were similarly… Similarly, their letters were published, and it ruined their reputation. They have that in common. 

Amanda: Yeah, there you go. 

Ann: They both went to France during the Revolution for idiotic reasons. Marie Antoinette has a 32. This is… 

Amanda: I can live with this, yeah. 

Ann: This is kind of like… It’s women who their reputations were so ruined. I’m just seeing who else is… Charlotte Corday has a 33.5. So, this all makes sense to me, I think. 

Amanda: I just wish more people knew about her and, like, knew more than what you see in the Vivien Leigh movie. 

Ann: Yeah. Well, and also the fact that she is… It sort of reminds me a bit of, like, the wives of Henry VIII who are so often… Like Catherine of Aragon, who it was just like, “She was married to Henry VIII.” It’s like, well, she did so much other stuff! So, the fact that Emma Hamilton, it’s like, “She’s remembered for Lord Nelson.” It’s like, the whole first part of this book, Nelson was not in. Yeah, that’s not all she did. 

Anyway, Amanda, thank you so much. This was, like, I couldn’t have done this without you. Did you know anything about Emma Hamilton before? 

Amanda: Very little. I knew the name, like you. I knew the connection to Nelson. I didn’t even really know the art historical… There’s so much. There’s so many pictures you can just see her face, and it’s nice to now have the background to that. 

Ann: Yeah, it’s just so interesting to think about. She was the first, like, famous model. Other people like Hortense Mancini had a lot of portraits done of her, but she’s famous for being herself. Emma Hamilton became famous because of her modelling. 

Amanda: Right. Right. 

Ann: And I don’t know if that ever happened before. 

Amanda: Yeah, it was definitely happening to a couple of different people at this time. I’m thinking of Elizabeth Patterson, who married Napoleon’s brother, and same kind of thing, became famous, yeah, because she was connected to royalty, but also because she was like an artist muse in Baltimore, where she lived. So, it’s happening to a couple of different women at this time. But maybe we found the first, Emma. 

Ann: Yeah, this is the… Certainly, I don’t know, the fact that she’s the most painted woman— Well, it’s because Romney was obsessed with her and painted a hundred portraits of her every month. 

Amanda: Yeah. But it’s not because of who she’s connected to. Like, yes, she’s introduced to him because of her connection to Greville. But really, from there, it’s like, all Emma. 

Ann: She’s just so good at modelling in a way that nobody else was. 

Anyway, Amanda, how can people keep up with you if they want to know what you’re doing? You have two podcasts. 

Amanda: Yes. So, I do the weekly podcast – well, twice weekly – if you want royal news and specifically to, like, pick apart royal media, that is Off With Their Headlines, which I co-host with Meredith Constant. And I’m also on the new show, Reign Check – that’s a pun, R-E-I-G-N – with Newsner. That is out weekly as well. And then, you can follow me on social media @Matta_Of_Fact, and over on Substack, I have a twice-weekly newsletter as well called “The Fascinator.” 

Ann: And you have a book you’ve written. Do you know when it’s going to come out? 

Amanda: Tentatively, April of next year. So, the thing with my book is it’s written, the editor is done with it, but we’re getting original illustrations for it, so it’s currently in the design phase. I’m so excited. It’ll be just, like, this beautiful art object, as well as being a book all about the royal world. I’m basically selling it as, it’s a field guide to royalty, so I’m very excited. But, yeah, April 2027. So, hopefully, I’ll have more information on that later this year and, like, preorder links and stuff. But yeah, I’ll be an author this time next year, probably. [laughs] 

Ann: Fantastic. And I am an author as well. 

Amanda: You are an author! 

Ann: Rebel of the Regency: The Scandalous Saga of Caroline of Brunswick, Britain’s Queen Without a Crown, a woman who at one point wore a fake Maltese Cross necklace because that’s what Emma Hamilton was doing, and she wanted to… She was a trend chaser, Caroline of Brunswick. 

Amanda: She just loved a trend. 

Ann: She loved a trend, she loved a moment. It’s a funny biography…

Amanda: She just liked to be included, is one thing I learned about Caroline. 

Ann: Yeah! Kind of like Emma Hamilton, she was a real… She loved to be at a party, she loved to be around people. Her energy was really fun, and it was really it was fun to write this biography of her, this very little-known person from British history who, like Emma Hamilton, intersects with everybody. Jane Austen is in the book, Mary Shelley is in the book, all these people. Anyway, my book is called Rebel of the Regency, and you can pick it up where we get books in North America, and in Europe, and in Australia, and New Zealand, and lots of places. There’s a drinking game in my book. 

Amanda: There is in the footnotes. 

Ann: I do caution: If you’re going to do the drinking game, do it on a day when you’re home. 

Amanda: Read slow. Read slow.

Ann: Yeah, exactly. If you’re going to actually drink. 

Amanda: Break it up. 

Ann: Anyway, so people can get that. And you can follow me online, I’m on all the places @VulgarHistoryPod. And Amanda, thank you so much. This was… It’s such a story of, like, highs and lows. I hate ending a story when it’s like, “And then everything got depressing, and then more depressing, and then she tragically died over the course of several weeks.” 

Amanda: That’s why I like you doing the rankings at the end, because you get to revisit happier times as you’re considering. So, always, always a pleasure. 

Ann: It’s always. Thank you so much. And to all my listeners, keep your pants on and your tits out. 

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Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Ann Foster. Editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. Regency Era artwork by Karyn Moynihan. Social media videos by Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at VulgarHistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get early, ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. Vulgar History merchandise is available at VulgarHistory.com/Store for Americans and for everyone else at VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. Follow us on social media @VulgarHistoryPod. Get in touch with me via email at VulgarHistoryPod@gmail.com.

References:

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