Jacquotte Delahaye: The Real Pirate of the Caribbean

The real Pirates of the Caribbean were Black, and women! And Jacquotte Delahaye was the most famous of them all.

Author Vanessa Riley’s new novel, Fire Sword and Sea, is a sweeping, immersive saga based on the life of the legendary seventeenth-century pirate Jacquotte Delehaye. Vanessa joins us on the podcast to talk all about this lesser-known figure, and how she managed to research this story!

Learn more about Vanessa Riley and Fire Sword and Sea.

Buy Fire Sword and Sea (affiliate link)

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Preorder info for Ann’s upcoming book, Rebel of the Regency!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get 15% off all the gorgeous jewellery and accessories at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠common.era.com/vulgar⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠commonera.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code VULGAR at checkout

Get Vulgar History merch at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vulgarhistory.com/store⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (best for US shipping) and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vulgarhistory.redbubble.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (better for international shipping)

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support Vulgar History on Patreon ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Vulgar History is an affiliate of Bookshop.org, which means that a small percentage of any books you click through and purchase will come back to Vulgar History as a commission. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use this link to shop there and support Vulgar History.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

Vulgar History Podcast

Jacquotte Delahaye: The Real Pirate of the Caribbean 

January 7, 2026

Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and Happy New Year! We’re getting into 2026, and I think it’s such a fun way to start the year with an interview with one of my favourite guests ever, Vanessa Riley. We’re talking today about her newest book, Fire Sword and Sea

You probably know Vanessa Riley mostly from… Her previous books have been mostly set in the Regency era, which is what we’re talking about this season. Her newest book is taking a look at a different time period and, in fact, couldn’t be more exciting for me personally, because I love a lady pirate saga. Her book is set in the 17th century, in the Caribbean. It’s telling the story of real-life pirate, Jacquotte Delahaye. Vanessa was kind enough to join us to talk about her new book. How do you research a pirate? Famously, they don’t leave a lot of written records about what they’re doing because what they’re doing is secretive. 

Anyway, I loved talking with her about this, and please enjoy this conversation with Vanessa Riley about her new book, Fire Sword and Sea

—————

Ann: So, I’m joined today by Vanessa Riley, author of the new book, Fire Sword and Sea. Welcome, Vanessa. 

Vanessa: Thank you, Ann, for having me. 

Ann: I am so excited to talk to you about this book because, it’s no secret, I love a pirate story. I love a pirate saga, and that is what this book is. So, I just want you to walk me through, kind of like, how this book came to be. So, my first question is: How did you first hear about Jacquotte [phonetic] Della-hay? Am I saying that right? 

Vanessa: I’m probably the last person to actually help people pronounce… I am very Southern and slightly Caribbean. So, it’s like, you’re going to get a mixture of stuff. I just had a conversation with Robin Miles, who is doing the narration for Fire Sword and Sea. So, she says [ph.] De-la-hee. 

Ann: Sure. 

Vanessa: And I was like, okay! [both laugh] Sounds good to me. She does so much research on the creoles, the accents, the pronunciations… That is a science all to its own. So, a great narrator is so amazing, especially when you’re talking about these cultures that are sometimes seldom spotlighted. But the Caribbean is a mixing pot; everybody is there, and everybody’s trying to gain their fortunes, create new destinies. 

Ann: Well, that’s what I feel like this book, just when you said that, I’m like, oh wow, that is going to be… That narrator is going to have to do a lot of research about different languages, different— Because yeah, there’s so many different people in this book, because that’s what it was like in the Caribbean at that time. 

So, Jacquotte, how did you first hear about her? Do you remember? 

Vanessa: Absolutely, remember, because I wasn’t looking for her! I was in Jamaica, you know, as one does, it was a writing retreat, but anytime I go anywhere, I want to know about the history. So, I went to the fort at Port Royal, and they took us on a tour, and it was just a fabulous tour because they’ve done some restoration work, because, you know, Port Royal, because of the age, because of the massive tsunami, you know, there are pieces missing and whatnot. But they’ve reconstructed this fort, and I was in the cell where I think Mary Read, the pirate, Mary Read was once held. To me, it was like, we’re in the Caribbean, are there any Caribbean women pirates? Because I’d just read an article from the Los Angeles Times that said that 20 to 30 percent of the pirates in the Caribbean were African or Caribbean, they were Black on these Utopia kind of ships. 

So, I started doing some research, and the name Jacquotte Delahaye came to my scope, and then I just dug in and tried to find everything. She’s controversial, so I do think she is an amalgamation of different lives. But I think she’s a very accurate portrayal of what women did in order to gain a footing in this world. 

Ann: The research is what interests me as well, because she is, like you just said, she’s sort of an amalgamation, perhaps. It’s not just as easy as with your other books, where you’re like, “Okay, this person was born here,” like the other historical books you’ve done, where it’s like, this, and this, and this, and this is where she grew up. It’s like, how on earth did you research this? 

Vanessa: Snippets. The snippet tactics. So, you would find her, but I’d always find her in reference to Anne Dieu-le Veut. Anne Dieu-le-Veut is, you know, she’s a white woman that actually was enslaved, from France. So, France would gather prisoners, they would gather thieves, and they would ship them out to the colonies because they were trying to form family colonizations, you know, birth people in the Caribbean to cement the hold. Anne was one of these women. And Anne is highly linked to Jacquotte. 

So, finding her life helps me put pieces of Jacquotte back together, and then you find other people that she’s in league with. So, there’s Michel le Basque, there is Laurens de Graaf, all these people who are much more highly-documented because they’re either a man or they’re Caucasian, they’re white. You put these pieces back together. So, by finding her contemporaries and then seeing how she interacted in their lives, I was able to reconstruct her life. 

Ann: And so, we were talking just before we recorded that the time period and the place that you’re writing about was such a place of chaos, but I would also say, of opportunity for people, because it was really just… There’s all these people from all these different cultures, and they’re all just kind of trying to make a buck, trying to figure out how they can thrive for themselves. 

So, can you explain for everybody— At least the book travels around because it’s a pirate, obviously, but where does your story start, and what is it like there at that time? 

Vanessa: Her world starts in Tortuga. Tortuga is this little, tiny island off of Hispaniola, present-day Haiti, that is being fought over by France and Spain. The island literally goes through these waves of wars, or battles, where one side will knock the other side off, and in a couple of years, and the other side will come back. And so, at the moment in time where we meet Jacquotte, the island is split; half of it is Spanish, half of it is French, but it is a pirate haven. So, pirates from all over the Caribbean are coming to Basse-Terre, which is like the main city, very close to the coastline of Tortuga, and that’s where we find Jacquotte. The evidence I found is that her father owned a tavern. I know of her brother and, at some point, the father dies. It’s unclear what happens, but Jacquotte is thrust in this world where she has to make a way for her and her brother. So, those are the little bits that I had. 

But you’ve got to think, Tortuga, it’s wild. There’s a huge prison up on top of one of the big hills of Tortuga. One moment, it’s got the white sand beaches, right? You’ve got that typical tropical view, but just go into the jungles, and there are traps for wild boars. And then, you’ve got these retired pirates who are no longer seaworthy that the French government, or the Spanish government, has convinced to make plantations, to settle down roots. The belief is that if we can inhabit the Caribbean, we can own the Caribbean. So, at this moment in time, it’s about inhabitation. There are battles going on, but it’s more between the world powers. So, in this world, we think of the world powers of Britain, you know, the sun never sets. Well, this is before all that. 

Ann: Yeah, exactly. 

Vanessa: Britain’s on the come up, as I would say. You know, Britain, France, Portugal, the Dutch, all of these individuals are trying to get wealthy, they’re trying to make a name for themselves. And piracy is legal. So, you could be a pirate, as long as you don’t hit my ships, I can give you a writ that says you can steal everything under the sun. Just give me a little percentage, and we’ll call it a day. And the two world powers, the two wealthiest powers this moment and wealth is determined by – not size of armies at this moment in time, or navies, because navies are still they’re still figuring a lot of things out – it’s wealth, and that is Spain and the Mughal Empire. 

To me, it was kind of a side, which was very funny or sad, if you go back to Hollywood, the early pirate movies have the Mughals in it! The early pirate movies have the Mughals and, you know, but very westernized approach, Western hero, Mughal princess, that kind of thing, right? A little bit of some of the early legend stories that have happened with, you know, Henry Every, one of the most successful pirates in history. 

So, it’s this weird world, and to me, it was having to divorce the thoughts of how our present-day world works, or even my most comfortable— I am very happy from 1750 to 1830, that’s my jam, my lane. This was different. Everything was different; clothing was different, expectations and roles were different. It was… You know, would I do it again? … [both laugh] But it’s kind of like, once you’re in there, I’m in it to win it. I’m going to figure out everything in this world, I want to bring it back to you. You know, I firmly believe there’s a reason why I was given this story, and so I’m going to do everything I can to figure out her world so that you feel, for just maybe the time you’re reading the book, I got a little snippet of what the world used to look like. What did they get right? What did they get wrong? And what can we learn from it? 

Ann: Well, that’s what I found— Because I would say also in my reading, even my history research I’ve done, I’ve never looked at this particular slice of history before. So, I will say, to the listeners who haven’t read this book yet, like, Vanessa does, she holds your hand, she explains everything. You’re not just stranded in this unfamiliar time period. [chuckles] But yeah, it is so interesting because when I, or when you think about the Hollywood pirates and stuff, it’s often… Or even like, Pirates of the Caribbean, the movies, that’s a later generation of pirates. This is the OG, like, the original, original piracy. Like you were saying, even when you tell people, this is even before England was a world power, it’s like, oh! So, this is all the way back. That’s part of what I found really interesting and sort of exciting, and what makes the story unpredictable is I’m like, I don’t know where this is headed. [Vanessa laughs] Like, I don’t know, in world history, which power is going to come out on top at this point? I don’t know. So, it’s really the sense, like, where Jacquotte is living, where it’s just kind of like, it’s chaos. 

Vanessa: Total chaos. 

Ann: But I find the fact that in your book and in life, she had this younger brother who is maybe a special needs, disabled, it gives her… It’s not just her that she’s worrying about; she’s got this kid, also. So, it just suddenly… She can’t just run off and have adventures. I would imagine that was when you were putting the story together, you knew that the brother was going to be an important part of it. 

Vanessa: I knew the brother was an important part. Of all the characters, he’s the least amount of information. So, you know, there’s points where, as a researcher, I don’t know what happens. But I got a sense that to have her story, she’s got to figure something out. Her mother is dead, her father has died, and this younger brother, what does she do? 

When you write about women, as you know, there are these zones or lanes of the natural caregiver, the natural nurturer, and then we forget about this other lane, where maybe it’s not that natural. Maybe there’s a third lane of some sort of freedom, and, you know, when we look at Jacquotte, I had an amalgamation of thoughts. What makes a woman decide to leave all this behind, to don male garb, and go pretend she’s a man so that she can make some money, knowing that she could die and never come back to take care of this? So, even the short term of “I’m just going to go make some money,” you are risking so many things, you don’t know what’s going to happen. So, there’s a lane that I explored with Jacquotte that is kind of different than the other women. Because, you know, the book before this is Queen of Exiles, Queen Louise is a mother’s mother, right? She is very maternal, she is worried about her children. Island Queen, Dorothy Kirwan Thomas is extremely maternal. She knows each of her kids, the quirks, the things that drive them, and I felt how she wanted to make sure each one of them was successful. 

So, the other side of that coin is someone like Jacquotte, where her dreams, her desire to be more than what the world is trying to tell her, that “This is your only lane. You can only be a wife or a wench. There’s nothing else.” I wanted her to have her lane, and then you have to explore, well, what’s that lane look like when you know that every moment you could die? Every moment, you may not come back. You have these grand thoughts of, “I’m going to get this booty, I’m going to get all this money, come back, and I’m going to have this different world.” You may not make it past Tuesday. Scurvy will kill you because they’re just now figuring out you need to put some citrus on these boats. A splinter will kill you, you know, they’ll throw rum on you for some sort of cleansing purposes, but sometimes they don’t even have that. It’s a very dangerous world. And in any other minute, there are rebellions happening. These ships, the turnovers of who’s in leadership, it’s all chaos. And I think I wanted to make sure that Jacquotte wasn’t ignorant of that. 

You know, sometimes you get a hero or heroine, and they stumble into their thing. These have to be deliberate decisions because nothing is fast. You can’t just, “Oh, I’m going to go be a pirate!” No, you’ve got to plan. How are you going to join a pirate crew? How do you get on board these ships? How do you gain that trust? Because at any moment they could say, “Intruder! Let’s just kill him and go.” So, to add that level of realism, but yet tackle the natural roles that we often find women, or limit our women characters to be, that was an incredible challenge, but it has to be addressed. 

So, as you say, I kind of held hands. Yeah, I’m going to hold your hands because this is a different world, and I wanted everybody to understand and not judge any of these women or men who decide to do something different. And piracy is legal during this time, so this is an actual profession. You know, firefighter, mayor, pirate. [laughs] You can see little boys, and maybe some girls, are dreaming of “I want to be a ship captain. I don’t want to be impressed into the British Navy,” or the French Navy or the Spanish Navy, “I want to do things on my own.” You could see them growing up wanting to be a pirate. So, it’s such a different world, and you know, that was one of the biggest challenges. It was such a different world, and to make sure that was conveyed, that my own belief system is not holding back the story, it was incredibly challenging. 

Ann: Yeah! No, that’s so interesting because talking about, this was… Well, you said that becoming a pirate is a legitimate career that all these people could do. It’s not when you think about now, like, you know, a bank robber or something is just like, well, that’s just… [laughs] You don’t grow up wanting to do that, you might fall into it. 

Can you talk about the role for Jacquotte, for a woman, to be a pirate, and the whole thing about disguising as a man and stuff? You know, it’s unlucky to have a woman on a ship, and all those sorts of things, so she’s got this extra barrier. You do show in the book very, very well in the first parts, like, she’s good with a ship, she knows how to sail a ship, she’s good with a sword. She’s got these skills, but that doesn’t mean anything if you’re not going to be allowed on a ship. 

Vanessa: Exactly. That sword, her swordsmith expertise, could literally just make her a better chef in the kitchen. Knife activities, just a better chef in the kitchen and things like that. Or being able to defend herself from drunks from her father’s bar. That expertise in weaponry, in being able to thrust and parry, and all these different mechanisms that you have to do when you’re working with swords or rapiers, it could simply be relegated to a traditional woman’s role. She has to be more. 

Jacquotte rises, you know, from the amalgamated versions or the truth versions or whatever version you find of her, she always rises to lead a mixed crew; crew of women and men and all different races. That is the common thread in her story. I wanted to build the story because I only got little snippets of her life, of where she is and who’s interacting, there’s no, you know, chronological timeline of, she was this old when this happened, that sort of thing. You just get events and things. And then, there’s also now a lexicon of people who’ve gone and invented their own histories for her and, you know, waging through that. So, it’s like, you have to be a special person to be able to survive the ruthless environment. Knowing that she’s going to rise up the ranks, you know, from being an oarsman to a helmsman, to somewhat of a navigator and then, you know, to an actual captain, you have to have real skills being able to navigate the boat. 

So, I had to build plausible ways to get her there. Old Jean is, you know, her mentor guide. He’s an invention, but he’s a tool that I used to show this is how she gains— Because someone had to teach her how to… You know, was it Michel le Basque? Maybe. He may have taught her. But for the necessity of the story, I make Old Jean a mentor because, with Michel, Michel is a love interest, and there are other reasons why you may want to teach somebody these skills, or show off these skills, et cetera. I wanted it very pure; a fatherly instinct, a mentor instinct who wants nothing, absolutely nothing but the best for Jacquotte. To put someone who knew how dangerous the world is for not only women, because he’s seen so much things happen, but for Black women during this time frame, to be able to relate to those different episodes that he knows she’s going to have to navigate. So, we have Old Jean teaching her, you know, how to steer a boat. She learns on her own how to handle her father’s rapier. Two skills that are going to be the mark of how she’s able to continue to navigate this very dangerous world. 

Ann: So, can you talk about the element of, again, this is a time and a place that not a lot of people are familiar with. So, what was the element of the slave trade that was going on in this place at that time? 

Vanessa: Yes. So, you know, there’s a book called 1619, and that is the first time enslaved people are coming to North America, right? Slave people were coming to the Caribbean before this time frame. Side note: When some trading ships were too lazy to go to Africa to get slaves, they would go to Mexico and just pick out the darker-skinned Indigenous folk and enslave them and sell them off into the Caribbean for money. It’s a crazy world. 

They haven’t figured out yet that sugarcane is the cash crop. So, they’re trying cotton, they’re trying indigo in different places, they are trying tobacco. Tobacco is a huge, huge thing. But tobacco, many of these things are stealing the nutrients from the soil, so they’re not taking off, so it’s a limited factor. The conditions are so harsh. They need enslaved labour, in their perspective, to manage these burgeoning plantations or habitations. But they haven’t got the cash crop yet. There’s not a mass thing, there’s not this mass need just yet. At the end of the 1600s, 1690s, oh, yeah! By then, they know it’s sugarcane, sugarcane all day long, and the world has a sugar tooth, so we’ve got to get more enslaved people. But at this moment in time, you know, an enslaved person could escape, and they may or may not be hunted down. You know, they would try and get their property back, but it’s not the intensity that you see later on of because of that value that is going on. 

But at the same time, one of the most insane things that I came upon in my research was I was looking at logbooks, and they would have “Pewter vessel, fourteen Guineas.” And at the time, I was thinking that was the coin. It wasn’t the coin. That was the enslaved. That was the number of enslaved because “Guinea” is what they called all Africans at this point in time, that was bodies. That currency, you know, you may steal from Spain today, but the Spanish armadas may come for you. So, the quickest thing to do is to convert that into cash, and cash, in that moment in time, are enslaved Africans, enslaved people. To see it just put it so callously, so plainly, in a ship’s record or a captain’s log of how he traded for a pewter bowl, not even silver! [Ann laughs] Pewter! Fourteen, seventeen Guineas. It’s like, you know, in our present-day world, people try to convince you that the Guinea coin, the British Guinea, is because they use metal from Guinea. No. 

Ann: I’ve come across that currency in my research before… I never knew. 

Vanessa: Yeah. So, I was like, the 1600s was insane. Totally insane. You know, people always ask me how I research these things and mental health and all these sorts of… This really… This did some stuff. [laughs] I’m not going to lie. This one was hard to shake off because of just the nature of the beast. But I tried to be as detailed as possible, as authentic as possible, but I never want you to stumble in the narrative. So, I’m explaining things, but naturally explaining things. There was just so much research that I wanted to put in here, but some of it, I just couldn’t… But I’d put in, you know, the amalgamated, the extended cast, is one of the ways that I use to make sure that at least subjects were broached, or talked about, or seen. 

Ann: Well, one of the things, when we’re talking about the extended cast of the book, and we won’t get into spoilers at all, but there are gender things happening in this book. I mean, Jacquotte disguises herself as a man for a time. I don’t know how much you want to talk about her… the other character. [chuckles]

Vanessa: Yes. Well, you know, the thing that I want people to realize is we’ve come up with fancy words that scare people. So, if you say certain words nowadays, you will either get flagged by Canva, which happened during this process, or you will have people who will automatically never want to hear anything more of this history, which is a disservice to these people. They lived! This was an incredibly difficult, strange and sometimes wonderful world. There were women who dressed up as men, embodying that lifestyle of, how do I act like a man? How do I become a man? Et cetera. There were people, because there was a shortage of women in the West Indies, that saw other opportunities, natural opportunities, things that felt natural to them; you meet them in the book. 

I don’t want to prejudice anybody’s thought process, but you leave your 21st-century minds behind where things have labels. And I think throughout, love is so rare, and the world is dangerous. When you find love, you hold on to it. I think that was my guiding principle when I wrote this book, and it was necessary to showcase because this world is full of dichotomies. You have people making pledges, “No women on board!” but they’re smuggling women on board. You have Black, white, Indigenous people on the deck, everybody pulling their weight, doing sort of thing, and you’ll have chattel slavery underneath the boat. And to think about… People weren’t necessarily thinking about being their brother’s keeper during this time frame, because it was survive. How do I survive? How do I live another day? That took precedence, but not necessarily in a selfish way; it was just more so a fact of life. And then once again, you find these people who found love, who found comfort in someone else, and I believe just from someone else. Those lives are shared in this book. 

We have fancy words for them now. I think people just said people are people, and they dealt with who they were presented with, and they were comfortable with who they were comfortable with. I want that message to really come about. But there’s no apologies in this book. You know, I wrote the lives I found, the pieces, the snippets, the things I found. And I want those individuals, the brave individuals I’m bringing back to life, I want that to resonate. Because, you know, if we live without labels, maybe we are an easier, safer place. Or maybe that’s how we get through chaos: we drop labels, and we just look at people as being people. 

Ann: In your book, it comes across… You were saying that you could die tomorrow, you could die today. When you’re living this pirate lifestyle, you don’t know what’s going to happen, so you might as well just, like, be true to who you are, and if you find someone to love, hold on to it. That makes all of the sense, like, there’s not time in these people’s lives, these pirates, to be worrying about labels, or what other people think about this or that. It’s just like, “Can I trust this person? Are they part of my crew? Great. Then I’m on board.” 

Vanessa: Yeah. The word ‘matelotage’ [phonetic: may-toe-lage], once again, this is southern pronunciation, but a ‘matelotage’ is a formal word for a same sex union on these boats. That helped them, you know, they formalized it so that, you know, if you died, you got the person’s property. 

So, once again, when we look from our 21st century, “Oh no, this never happened!” No! There’s a lot of stuff that happened, we just haven’t been brave enough to either acknowledge it, or we have been too judgmental to see humanity for what it is. 

Ann: Also, I feel like these people, people living in this era, the pirates— Well, although, I guess it was a legal job at the time, they weren’t necessarily outlaws, but it’s just like, why would they prescribe to… Like, if society says you should do this and this and this, it’s like, well, why? Why? If you’re a pirate, why would you pay attention to any of those rules? 

Vanessa: Exactly. Exactly! You’re going to pirate along and do… You’ve decided to live by your wits and on your own means. You’re relying on this crew that becomes family to some respects, until there’s a mutiny, of course. [chuckles] But, you know, that’s the life you chose, and everything that comes with it, you can’t necessarily pick and choose. You know, when I discovered the pieces about the creed that they have to vote on, like, first of all, they’re voting on, these are the rules. So, if you’re a captain, you know, you can’t just arbitrarily change rules. And the crew, they live by this. That is more important. Living by your bond, by your word, is more important than sexuality, than race, than anything in this time frame. 

Ann: So, for people who are going to read this book, I mean, you just said a lot of really lovely things about what you hope people get out of the book. But I do want to make sure that people know that it’s also just, like, it’s a swashbuckling adventure. There’s action sequences, there’s a good time. Like, how do you describe this book to people who maybe are a bit, like, “Oh, I don’t know if I want to read a book about a pirate.” Like, how do you explain that it’s a good time? 

Vanessa: It is a good time because it’s a swashbuckling adventure, and you rarely see… When I started in my venture into historical fiction, I didn’t realize how rare it was to see a woman leading a saga, leading an adventure, going from place to place to place, journeys to some sort of quest. That is very rare. You will find, you know, men do quests. I guess women are supposed to stay home. But here’s a crew of women that didn’t want to stay home. You’re going to be invited into their lives; you’re going to see the danger, you will see sometimes recklessness, you will see adventure, high seas, you know, fate that’s happening. 

And as always, I’m going to give you the geo world politics. What’s going on in this world that allows for this to happen? What are the responses that are happening? And this is a crazy time frame. Once again, it’s before chattel slavery is really starting to kick off. So, you get a moment in time where maybe the world could have chosen differently. You get a moment in time where you see the problems we have now are right there, right in our face, and we could have chosen differently. 

So, I think you’re going to be… If you like adventure, if you like learning things – even though it’s not a textbook, boys and girls, not a textbook – but if you’d like to just know a little bit more about the world in the 1600s and these daring women who decided “I want a different life.” I think that’s very powerful for the moment we’re living in, where people are choosing to want more. And you know, to live vicariously through these adventures, I think, is an exciting thing. And we have to know Anne Dieu-le-Veut, we have to know Jacquotte Delahaye. We need these women who decided to do something, just, very different and exciting. Laurens de Graaf, Michel le Basque. I mean, these are real pirates that are interspersed into our narrative, and they’re doing some crazy, amazing things, and we just need to know about them. 

Ann: It’s January, everyone’s listened to this in January. But Halloween is not that long ago, and you always see kids dressed as pirates. There’s just something about that lifestyle that, like, kids… It really appeals to a kid, I think, just the sense of like freedom and adventure. I think we all still have that little kid inside of us who’s just like, “A pirate! Oh, I love pirates.” I feel like everyone went through that phase, maybe. 

Vanessa: Yes. But this is not a kid’s story, it’s a little violent. 

Ann: It’s not a kid’s story. This is for your… If you liked pirates as a kid, and now you’re grown up. 

Vanessa: This is grown-up pirates, this is the pirates with consequences. Yeah, it’s not Pirates of the Caribbean, although they had some consequences. But it’s a realistic view of an exceptional period of time where everything was possible, and everything was against you. So, you’re hanging in the balance. Which way do I turn? Which way do I go? That’s Fire Sword and Sea, and I think you’re going to love it. 

Ann: I agree. I agree. I’ve read it, and I agree. Thank you so much, Vanessa, for joining us to talk about your book. It’s the sort of book… You know, I don’t always feel this way when I’m reading a book, but this one, I was just like, I need to talk. I need to learn, how did you put this together? Because there’s so many so many moving parts in this time period, and how do you come up with this story? So, I was just like excited to get to hear the inside scoop of how this book came to be. Thank you so much for joining me. 

Vanessa: Thank you. 

—————

So, I know you’re all going to want to read this book, and guess what? It’s available! It has just been published this week. Fire Sword and Sea by Vanessa Riley is available anywhere you get your books from. Go to VanessaRiley.com, and you can get all the links as well as a book club kit for this book. It’s so good, I just want everybody to know that I’m always here for a lady pirate story. Thanks again to Vanessa for joining us for this conversation. 

So, this podcast is Vulgar History. My name is Ann Foster, and I’ve written a book also. It’s coming out in February, called Rebel of the Regency. It’s a nonfiction book about a scandalous woman from the Regency era named Caroline of Brunswick. You can preorder this book now in basically North America, Canada, the US. It’s also available to preorder, I’m so excited, in the UK as well as in Australia, from any major bookstore, basically. You can add it on Goodreads, you can add it on Storygraph to your TBR. 

If you preorder the book, which comes out in like a month, it comes out February 10th, there are some preorder goodies you can get. You can fill out a form to get your preorder treats at RebelOfTheRegency.com. That’s where you also get information about my book and where to order it and things like that. But if you preorder, you can get one-year free membership to my Substack, a one-year free membership to my Patreon, and a limited edition Caroline of Brunswick paper doll set. So, again, just go to RebelOfTheRegency.com to let me know you’ve made your preorder, and that means when it’s published next month, it’ll be right there waiting for you at your local bookstore, or delivered to you, or whatever you choose to do. 

I’m hoping to have information soon, confirmed information, about when and where I’ll be going on book tour, so you can come and meet me in person. Hopefully, more information about that coming soon. 

Next week, we’re getting back into the Regency era of it all with a very familiar guest talking about a lesser-known woman from the Regency era. I think you’re going to really enjoy next week’s episode as well. And so, until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out. 

Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Ann Foster. Editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. Regency Era artwork by Karyn Moynihan. Social media videos by Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at VulgarHistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get early, ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. Vulgar History merchandise is available at VulgarHistory.com/Store for Americans and for everyone else at VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. Follow us on social media @VulgarHistoryPod. Get in touch with me via email at VulgarHistoryPod@gmail.com.

References:

Learn more about Vanessa Riley and Fire Sword and Sea.

Buy Fire Sword and Sea (affiliate link)

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Preorder info for Ann’s upcoming book, Rebel of the Regency!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get 15% off all the gorgeous jewellery and accessories at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠common.era.com/vulgar⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠commonera.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code VULGAR at checkout

Get Vulgar History merch at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vulgarhistory.com/store⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (best for US shipping) and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vulgarhistory.redbubble.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (better for international shipping)

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support Vulgar History on Patreon ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Vulgar History is an affiliate of Bookshop.org, which means that a small percentage of any books you click through and purchase will come back to Vulgar History as a commission. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use this link to shop there and support Vulgar History.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoice