Vulgar History Podcast
Regency Era Cottagecore Lesbians: The Ladies of Llangollen
November 26, 2025
Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and we are in our Regency Era. This season, we’re talking about the Regency era, which is, if you think about, like, the Jane Austen times, Bridgerton times, it’s the late 1700s, early 1800s. A lot of the episodes are focused on England. But this week’s episode is focused on Ireland; we’re talking about Wales; we’re talking about the Ladies of Llangollen. And I have a very special guest joining me today.
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Ann: So, I’m joined for this very special episode by Katie Charlwood from Who Did What Now! Katie, welcome so much.
Katie: Thank you for having me back!
Ann: I’m always looking for a reason to bring you back. And this story, I was just saying before we record it, it’s like there’s Ireland stuff, there’s queer stuff. It’s like, this is you. I need you here for this.
Katie: This is me. This is me! I’m just waiting for you when you have to go on your book tour, and you end up over this side of the Atlantic. And then, what we’ll do is we’re going to go to the Caroline of Brunswick in Brighton.
Ann: This is a plan we’ve had for ages and I am like, we’re doing it. We’re doing it!
Katie: It’s like, several years in the making. We’re several years into this. We’re like mm-hm!
Ann: We’re going to show up at this pub and it’s going to be amazing. But today, there is a little Caroline of Brunswick moment because she was the icon of the Regency and she connects to everybody. But this story… Well, okay, I’m going to… It’s the Ladies of… Can you say the place name please and your beautiful Welsh accent you can put on?
Katie: [phonetic, Hs pronounced very harshly] Hlan-gaw-hlen. The Ladies of Llangollen.
Ann: Somebody out there might be thinking, “Oh, the Ladies of [Ls pronounced as Ls] Llangollen.” No. No. No. [pronounced like Katie] Llangollen is what we say.
Katie: And that language is… tricky, I find. Even… [sighs] I’m going to do language… So, as someone who has to pronounce a lot of words in a lot of other languages (especially place names and surnames), like, trying to wrap your tongue around a lot of these. Luckily, because it’s one of those, sort of, Celtic languages, there’s certain bits that are easier because that [harsh H] sound kind of appears throughout. But it’s the [harsh H] to the “O,” and it’s… [harsh H] It’s not easy. [laughs]
Ann: I want to say: so much respect to all the Welsh people listening out there. We love your language, we love your accent, and we’re here to try to represent you as best as we can. Although this story does not start off in Wales, the story ends up in Wales.
So, we’re talking about these ladies. We’ll talk later about what they look like, which, I’ll say right now, what they look like to me, in the most affectionate way possible, is they look like Ian Holm in The Lord of the Rings movies, but in a skirt, is what they look like to me. They’re adorable little hobbit lesbians.
Katie: That is exactly… That is exactly right. I’m sorry. [laughs] I’m just picturing that. It’s perfect!
Ann: That’s who they grow up into. But we’re going to talk about who they were as young people first. So, the ladies themselves, it’s Eleanor Butler and it’s Sarah Ponsonby. Eleanor Butler; her family was Irish, but they were living in France in 1739 when she was born because of the whole thing where Protestant English people came into Ireland, and it was not great for Irish Catholic people there.
Katie: No, no. There’s a whole thing behind that. So, yeah. It all starts with Henry VIII, as per usual, because always, always… Am I allowed to swear? [laughs]
Ann: Yes, yes.
Katie: Okay. [laughs] Henry VIII, massive prick, he’s like, “I am now King of Ireland,” even though he only had, like, a little bit of it. And then it was when mainly Mary I started some plantations, followed by Elizabeth and then [growls] James VI of Scotland, I of England, a man who… I don’t trust anybody who writes Bible fanfiction. That’s all I’m saying.
Ann: [laughs] So, we’ve got this unpleasant situation for people in Ireland. So, people with money, like this family, the Butler family, went to France, where it’s just a nicer time to be a Catholic person, in France.
Katie: Because he’s the Earl of Ormond, isn’t he? The dad.
Ann: The dad is the 16th Earl of Ormond, and the mother has a fancy name, which is Eleanor de Montmorency Morres. So, they are fancy, rich, Irish people.
Katie: And they actually have a connection to Anne Boleyn!
Ann: Do they? No.
Katie: Yes. So, gossip! Okay, historical gossip, several hundred years late. The reason that Anne Boleyn was brought back from France to England wasn’t to put her in front of Henry VIII. No, no, no. This was because Daddy Boleyn, he wanted to have control of the Ormond estate. So, the Earl of Ormond had his son, James the Lame, he needed a wife. So, their plan was to get Anne over, get Anne married to him, and they would have the Ormond estate and that he would basically rule it because they shared, like, a grandmother. So, he thought, “I want that,” and that was his way of sort of sneaking it in, which is where Anne Boleyn was almost an Irish countess. But then, we know what happened after that. But yeah, that’s their connection to this story.
Ann: Oh, my gosh. See, I had no idea! Like, that could be that could be somebody else’s historical fanfiction. What if Anne Boleyn had just gone to Ireland? What would that all have been like?
Katie: Yeah. What if she didn’t survive the… I mean, there’s so many things, the what-ifs in history. I wouldn’t have the time to research any of that. But I love the question, and someone else could do it and then tell me.
Ann: Exactly. And so, what I want to tell everybody, too, just on the hop for this episode about these ladies, is that they grow up and have a lovely relationship. I don’t often have people on my podcast, topics, where it’s like, “Oh, this was a nice relationship.” That never happens. And it extra never happens when it’s a same-sex, like, a queer pairing. I just want to let everyone know a happy story.
Katie: We’re not burying your gaze in this one!
Ann: No, no! It’s so rare, and I’m so happy to be able to tell this story, because I think a while ago, somebody, a listener, was like, “Oh, it’d be great… Could you do more queer topics, but maybe, like, ones that don’t end terribly?” And I was like, “Love to find one. I’d love to find one to tell you about.” And I found one.
Katie: Yeah, because it’d be great. But most of them end up in death. [laughs] Mean, terrible death.
Ann: And even if it’s not some sort of, like, execution-based, mob violence, it’s often just like, “And then she got tuberculosis, age 20.” Like, that’s how most stories end.
Katie: Always. It’s either tuberculosis or, my personal favourite, all words lead to dysentery.
Ann: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. But these two little hobbits, they fall in love, they have a lovely relationship, and they live to ripe old ages. So, just so everybody can know, just like, the opposite of a trigger warning, just like, happy warning.
Anyway, so we’ve got one of them. One of these ladies is off in Ireland with her rich, Irish family. The other lady, Sarah Ponsonby, was born in 1755 in Ireland. Her parents… There’s a lot of names here. I’m going to do my best, and then you jump in and say them properly. Her father is Chambré Brabazon Ponsonby.
Katie: You know what that is?
Ann: Yeah. Chambré as a name? With an accent.
Katie: Chambré.
Ann: Chambré. So, this is great. That’s the dad; her mother is Louisa Lyons. So, her mother died, and then the dad remarried, the wives kept dying, but eventually she is… And then the father dies, I think, as well. So, she, ultimately, little Sarah, is sent to live with her father’s cousin, Lady Betty Fownes, in Woodstock in County Kilkenny. Are you familiar with this?
Katie: I am familiar with County Kilkenny. [laughs]
Ann: Okay! That’s why I put that part in there, because it’s like, just so people can place where this is.
Katie: I should probably explain, actually. Because Ireland, you have to imagine, even though it’s a very small country, is that each county is like… Say, for example, if someone was from America, they’d be like, “I’m from Texas. I’m from…” you know “… Arkansas.” I just couldn’t remember states there for a full ten seconds. But no. So, like, in Ireland, you’d be like, “I’m from Donegal.” Like me, I’d say, “I’m from Donegal,” and you’ve never met anyone from Donegal who isn’t incredibly proud to be from Donegal. Your county is sort of the big deal of where you’re from. Like, you’re from Dublin, you’re from Donegal, you’re from Galway, you’re from, you know, Cork, Kilkenny. It’s kind of like a state, except states have their own laws and stuff; we just follow the one law. But it’s, kind of, being from that county is kind of important. It’s part of your sort of… I don’t want to say personality, but for a lot of people, it is.
Ann: No, that’s so good to know, because where I am in Canada, it’s just like, we have a city and, like, I’m in a county, I couldn’t tell you what it was called. But the province is what’s important. So, it’s equivalent to that. It’s what province you’re from.
Katie: Yeah. Because we have provinces, too, but the county is more important than the province, really. And that’s where, like, I was trying to explain this to somebody in France before, because I was explaining that a county was like a French province, and they were like, “Ohhh!” And I was like, okay, now you understand where we are, like, geographically.
Ann: But the whole Ireland-based part of this is mostly in Kilkenny. So, that’s where we are. Shout out to everybody listening from County Kilkenny.
So, this little girl, little Sarah, she’s sent off to stay with her cousin, and her cousin was an adult-aged person, but she was devoted to her, which is great. It’s not one of those like, again, there’s going to be, you know, dramatic stuff in this story, but at this point, it’s the opposite of, like, a Charles Dickens type situation with a horrible guardian and a ward. Her cousin is okay. So, she sends her as all wealthy-ish young women are to boarding school, to continue her education. Working at the school at this time is Eleanor Butler. Now, is there an age gap? Yes. But are they in love yet? No. Because one is an adult and one is a child. So, just like, don’t worry about it.
And what was Eleanor doing there? Working as a teacher? Wasn’t she in France? So, Eleanor is like… Okay, so she’s 29, she’s unmarried, and she’s a scholarly… She’s just a straight-up nerd. She’s not interested in anything except for just learning things, reading books, being kind of intense about education and stuff. And so, she shows up at the school. Sarah, at this point, is 14 years old, Eleanor is in her twenties. She becomes her tutor, and as the years go by, and, you know, Sarah stops being 14 and becomes a bit older, they develop an intense, I’m not going to say loving or sexual relationship, but just a bond, like a relationship at this point. And then Sarah, she graduates from school and returns to go to Woodstock to live with her cousin, Betty. But Betty has this shitty husband, because every—
Katie: Whaaaat?
Ann: A shitty husband?!
Katie: In the past? [Ann laughs] I’m shocked! I mean, now, but also then. [laughs]
Ann: Can you believe? So, the husband is William, and he is annoyed that Betty has not had a child in a big Henry VIII vibes, really, where it’s just like, “Baby, there’s two people involved in this failed fertilization.”
Anyway, so he’s just like, “I want a male heir,” and he’s like, “Well, what if I dump Betty and get together with this sexy, young, teenage ward?”
Katie: Eww.
Ann: So, he’s paying way too much creepy attention to her and Sarah, to her credit, because, you know, not everybody would speak out when they’re being treated in this way, she wrote to him a letter just to be like, “Just so you know, your feelings are not reciprocated. You are a creepy old man. Stay away from me.” She wrote, “The only things I feel towards you are disgust and detestation.”
Katie: I love her.
Ann: These two ladies! Like, this is where you’re like, okay, they’re both… They speak their mind, you know? Anyway, so she wrote in this letter, “If you continue to pursue me, I will inform my cousin and the rest of the family,” which is interesting. She just wrote to him, she didn’t go to Betty. She just told him, like, “Back off.” You know, I think she didn’t want to tell Betty, her guardian, because she knew that this would break her heart and whatever. So, she’s just like, “I’m going to handle this. Stay away from me, creepy old man.”
Katie: But I love people who have that energy of, “I am going to burn this bridge with me standing on it.” Because here’s the thing, being who she was, being a woman in that time period anyway, her word is going to hold less weight. But even with that… So, like, out with the family, you know, it wouldn’t hold much weight, but within, he’s going to be absolutely buggered. So, she’s like, “My reputation may go down because they’ll say I was luring you or whatever, but I’m going to destroy you if you keep this up, boy!” I love that for her.
Ann: The energy is like… It’s the best under the circumstances, really. So, meanwhile, she was, you know, she’s living in this house, the creepy guy’s there. She’s writing this letter, but they’re living all together, so it’s a stressful, anxious time for her. But she’s getting support long distance from Eleanor, who, they were keeping in touch via letters. There’s a lot of letters in this story.
Katie: [longing sigh] I miss letters, right? The letters… Like, who needs a text message? Send me a letter.
Ann: It’s beautiful. And they were writing fast and furious, like, they were staying in touch a lot. Anyway. So, they figured out a plan together to help Sarah escape from this situation, and the plan was that they were going to run away together. So, I will say at this point, clearly, they are in love with each other, and both adults.
Katie: Yes, let’s make that clear. They are both fully grown adults now.
Ann: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. I just want to make that really clear: This is a story about these two cute little lesbians. And yes, they met when one was 14, and one was 20-something, but now they’re both adults, so don’t worry about it. So, this is like… When I was like, “Oh, maybe I’ll do a story about these Ladies of Llangollen,” and I never knew this first part of the story, and this is where I was just like, god damn it. This is an astonishing story because you just hear about them mostly as these little hobbits, but they were… Okay. The saga, I call it “The Great Escape, Part One.”
So, March 30, 1778. Sarah comes to her cousin Betty, she’s weeping, and Betty is like, “Oh, Sarah’s crying because this little girl is ill.” But actually, Sarah was crying because she was going to run away, and she was going to miss Betty, and she couldn’t say that. And just for everybody to know, Sarah at this point is 25, Eleonor is 39, is the ages of these ladies. So, no one’s a young teenager at this point, they’re all adult-aged people. So, anyway, what happens? Sarah goes to her room, she weepingly says goodbye to her cousin in this dramatic way. And her cousin’s like, “Huh! That’s weird… Anyway.” Sarah goes to her room, puts on men’s clothing disguise, then she grabs her dog, Frisk, and I love… Frisk.
Katie: Good boy! Such a good boy.
Ann: There’s dogs throughout this story, and they’re always there on the side of these ladies. These are dog-owning lesbians, and I love it for them. Anyway, she also got a pistol for her own protection, and then she (and Frisk and the gun) leaps out of a window to the ground below. So, she had paid a local labourer to escort her to a nearby barn where Eleonor was waiting for her, also in disguise in men’s clothing. Their plan was to leave Ireland by boat. I think at this point, the plan was to go to England. So, they headed to the port at Waterford. Shout out to Waterford. Do you know any fun facts about Waterford? Waterford Crystal, I know, is a thing.
Katie: [laughs] Oh, Waterford. It’s bad because I always mix up Waterford and Wexford because they’re just right next to each other. The Vikings ended up there. People can be like, “Viking is the occupation,” I don’t care. We all call them Vikings. We’ve said that the Vikings for a couple hundred years now, I think we’re good. So, yeah, the Vikings were there. That’s one of the main places that they set up camp because it was fairly easy. Basically, you’ve got Waterford; above that is Kilkenny, so it’s kind of just above it; and then to the side of that, you’ve got Tipperary and Wexford as well. Wexford is where all the strawberries come from. [laughs] Now, it’s basically the very bottom of Ireland, but on the side of… So, because it’s kind of to the right-hand side, it is the part that is closest to the UK.
Ann: Right. And Waterford is the port, like, that’s where you’re going to…
Katie: Yeah. You get the port in Waterford.
Ann: So, they ran away, and they’re just like, “Here’s our plan. We’re running away.” I feel like their plan was inspired by… both of them are big readers. I think they’ve read a lot of novels and they’re just like, “Here’s what’s up: disguised as men, meet in a barn, sail away on a ship,” and they’ve got this really romantic idea about it. But what happened is that everybody knew instantly that they were doing this, and they were being chased in a way I think they hadn’t anticipated that they would be.
Katie: Didn’t the Mancini sisters do the same thing? Do they not just dress as men and flee on a boat? Or am I mixing that?
Ann: Yes.
Katie: Okay. [laughs] I’m like, “Didn’t they do that too, a couple hundred years before?”
Ann: I feel like Arabella Stewart also attempted to do this. Like, dress as a man, get on a boat. This is the classic plan.
Katie: This is everybody’s plan. “What are we going to do? Shove on some breeches. They’ll never suspect us in breeches!” [laughs]
Ann: [laughs] Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. But what didn’t work about this is just, like, they ran away, and everybody knew right away. So, it was common knowledge by the next morning that these two women had run away together.
So, William, gross husband William, sent servants to scour the land to find them. Honestly, you know, good job, inspectors, the, you know, CSI team of the era, they went to the barn and they they’re like, “Clearly they’ve been in this barn because here’s a ruffle from their clothing.” And just, once they had found that they were in the barn, they’re like, “Well, the only place they could be going is Waterford, so let’s go there.” Which is like, obviously what you’re describing, it’s like, well, they’re obviously going to this port city to catch a boat.
Katie: Yeah, they’re going to the nearest port. That’s why. Because Kilkenny and Waterford, because they’re so close and because that would be the— Otherwise they’re travelling across to get to somewhere like Dublin to try and get the port out, and that’s just more dangerous because it’s a longer trek because, you know, we don’t exactly have trains. Wait, do we have trains?
Ann: We don’t have trains yet. What we have are, like, these big carriages that I call, like, the party bus that’s just kind of a huge, very slow-moving carriage. But also, I will say, Sarah and Eleanor, they don’t have a lot of street smarts. I don’t think they would know what to do with themselves if they got to Dublin, frankly.
Katie: Yeah, I think they’d be scammed the moment they got there. They’re just trying to hide out in Waterford while they wait for the boat. Didn’t they miss the first one?
Ann: So, what happens is they missed the last sailing to Wales. They missed the boat, literally, and then they got lodgings for the night. Frisk, the dog, is still with them. He becomes a main character here. Apparently, he was barking so much that when the men came looking for them, they’re like, “Hey, we’re looking for two women and a dog,” and everyone in Waterford is like…
Katie: Everyone’s like, “Funny, you should mention that. There’s this little yapper.” [laughs]
Ann: “If you go to the tavern, it’ll be obvious,” yeah. So, Frisk, I’m so sorry. But you know, he was excited. He was excited to be part of this adventure.
Katie: I think he was just aware of how much danger was around these ladies, and he was just like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!” Consistently being like, “I’m warning you! I’m warning you both.” And I think that he was just doing his best, okay?
Ann: I think Frisk… Nothing wrong with what anything Frisk did. They would have been found anyway, but they were found quicker because Frisk was barking so much. I have a neighbour with a yappy dog, like, you can hear him from down the block.
Anyway, they were caught, they surrendered. So, Betty arrived, and she escorts Sarah back home. Eleanor’s father, who is he? The Baron or the Earl or whatever? he’s just like, you know, fancy, rich guy, also an asshole, surprise, and he’s just like…
Katie: Whaaaat?
Ann: Shocking, shocking. So, she was placed in sort of a house arrest with her father. The two of them are separated, and this is where Eleanor falls to her knees. She begs to be able to stay with Sarah at Woodstock, but this was not allowed. She was taken away by her family, who decided to send her, Eleanor, this 40-year-old lesbian, you know, in pants, they’re like, “We’re going to send you to a convent in France,” which is…
Katie: Okay. Sure, Jan. Sure.
Ann: [laughs] That’s what’s up. But anyway, what happens is Sarah had caught a cold. She caught a chill as so many people did in the Regency era, so many Jane Austen heroines. She caught a chill during their adventure, and so she stayed in bed, and then she was getting so sick a doctor was called. Like, she was not thriving. Eleanor was panicking from long distance, just sending a letter every five minutes, just being like, “Are you okay?”
She was so devastated to be apart from her, and she was sick. So, Eleanor was like, “Okay. I will go to the French convent, yes. But can I have one final meeting with Sarah to say goodbye to her?” And the families were like, “Okay. I guess you can meet in person for 30 minutes.” So, she was able to meet with Sarah for 30 minutes, and while they were saying in this meeting, I think presumably in the letters, too, but they made plans for the Great Escape, Part Two. And it’s like there’s even more sort of reason to want to escape now. It’s not just “We want to run away so you don’t have to be with this gross with your cousin’s husband,” but also, like, Eleanor is going to be sent to France, they’re just like, “How can we be together? We need to be together, and that means we have to put on our trousers and off we go.”
Katie: Get your pants on. [laughs]
Ann: So, between the illness and everything, this is one year after the previous attempt. So, I will say Eleanor’s father, who’s like, “We’re going to send you to a convent in France!” It’s like, are you? Because it’s been one year, so are you?
Katie: It’s just a constant threat over her. He’s like, “If you don’t behave…” It’s like, “You’re not going to get your dinner,” and then he gives her her dinner anyway. And it’s like, “If you don’t behave, I’m going to send you to France, to a convent.”
Ann: And she’s 40 years old! So anyway.
Katie: Also, are there not convents in Ireland, the place known for massive Catholicism? Oh yeah, there’s no convents. No convents here, is there, pal? Like, please.
Ann: Exactly.
So, you know, they have all these reasons to want to escape. They just want to be together. So, under the cover of darkness, April 1, 1779, Eleanor ran away from home to go join Sarah at Woodstock. And coming in clutch is a new… Like, Frisk is an important character in the story, but also is Sarah’s housemate, Mary Caryll.
Katie: Mary!
Ann: Shout out to… Mary steps up. As the rest of the house was asleep, Mary secretly opened the parlour window so Eleanor could climb in the window. It’s like, Babe. She could secretly open a door, too. But like these two, these are dramatic…
Katie: The drama! [laughs]
Ann: The drama: Climb in the window, climb in the window. And so, Eleanor crept into the house and then she hid in the upstairs room. And it’s this huge house, right? Slash, I would call it personally, some sort of palace, mansion. It’s a huge, old, rich family home in Ireland.
Katie: It’s a country house. It’s a big country house.
Ann: Yeah. So, she’s hiding in an upstairs room for the next few days. Picture like, Downton Abbey. It’s like, yeah, no one knew she was there because the house is so fucking big. I love this detail: Whenever someone came near the room, she would pop herself and hide in a cupboard.
Katie: Out of the closet, into the cupboard.
Ann: You said it. [laughs]
Katie: I’ve been thinking about this! [laughs]
Ann: No, that was beautiful. And I didn’t think of it, I’m so glad you did. Mary Caryll would secretly sneak her up food so she could eat.
Katie: Just sneak it up and just leave it in front of the cupboard, and the hand comes out, like those little paws that take the money from the box. [laughs]
Ann: [laughs] And so, for several days, this ridiculously (I have to say) stupid plan, works. So, Eleanor ran away from home, and so her family assumed that she had run away with Sarah. But then they went to Sarah’s family, and Betty was like, “No, Sarah’s here. She has not run away.” So, everyone’s like, “I guess Eleanor ran away by herself.” But then, a few days later, a man from Eleanor’s home arrived to reveal that Eleanor had been hiding in Woodstock this whole time.
Katie: How did he know, though?
Ann: Who is he?
Katie: Who is he? Also, how dare you? But also, who is he?
Ann: Yeah, I don’t know. So, this mysterious man showed up just to ruin the plan. Anyway, Eleanor… They finally opened the cupboard, and it’s like, “Oh, it’s Eleanor. She’s been living in the cupboard.” But they’re like.
Katie: Dah-dahdah-dah-dah! Falls out.
Ann: What are we going to do with you? They’re like, “We’ll just keep you here for a while.” So, she just stayed in the house, but now in a room, while they try to figure out what to do. William, the horrible husband, wrote to Eleanor’s horrible father, saying, like, “I demand you come and fetch her.” And Eleanor’s father was just like, “No.”
Katie: [indifferent tone] No. No.
Ann: “You know what? I’m tired. I’m tired of this. No, you keep her.”
Katie: “It’s a lot of hassle. I am getting old, right? I just want to smoke my pipe, eat my Werther’s Original. I just can’t.” Just done, I think. If it wasn’t worth it for him, like, even from a societal standpoint as well, because can you imagine, like, “Oh, your daughter’s right away again, has she, buddy?” Like, how many times? It would just be like, I think, a smear on his reputation because of it as well.
Ann: So, I guess, yeah, he just wants to wash his hands clean of the whole thing.
At this point, we get into some negotiations. The father had the family’s lawyer relay the message that Eleanor and Sarah can live together on the condition that they leave Ireland and never return, which, maybe to him was a threat, but to them was like, “Yeah, great. That’s what we were going to do.”
Katie: Oh, the thing we’ve been planning to do this entire time that’s been several years in the…? You’re just going to give it to us?… Yay!”
Ann: Like, that’s why we were going… Why did you grab us from Waterford in the first place?” Anyway, so they’re like, “Peace out!” and off they went.
So, Sarah… because these are both— Well, this is an era where, like, we’re going to talk about this so much in this Regency Era season of this podcast, everyone is writing travel memoirs. Like now, everyone is taking pictures, sharing on Instagram. Like, if you took a trip in these times, you would then publish a book about it. That’s what everybody did.
Katie: It’s like in the mid-2000s when everyone had a blog.
Ann: Yes, exactly! So, Sarah wrote a record of their early travels called Account of a Journey in Wales; Perform’d in May 1778 by Two Fugitive Ladies and Dedicated to her most Tenderly Beloved Companion by the Author.
Katie: It’s a long title!
Ann: It’s a long title. And I have to say, it’s a very lesbian title as well, because the fact that in the title, she’s just like, a trip done by two ladies dedicated to her companion, “to my beloved companion.” It’s like, you put in your title that this is dedicated to the woman you’re travelling with? It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. I’m happy for them. They finally got away.
So, they were like, “We’re going to go to England.” But again, as I said, these are not street-smart people; they don’t have a lot of lived experience. Quickly, they realized they can’t afford to live in England. So, they’re like, “What about Wales? How about Wales? Let’s just go to Wales.”
Katie: It’s closer, also, right? It’s less travel.
Ann: Yeah. And all they wanted, which is what they’re going to do, is just to find a little house and just live as just two little hobbits. They didn’t want to go to, like, this big city and go to the opera and whatever. They’re like, “We just want a little house. We want a garden. We want to landscape… Wales.” So, they went to the northern Welsh village of Llangollen, and they rented a two-storey cottage. Can you say the name of the cottage that they named it?
Katie: Plas Newydd. [pronounced: Plas nav-ith]
Ann: Which is Welsh for “new hall.”
Katie: “Welcome to our new hall.” But I like that they went, “What’s the Welsh for this? We’re going to use that. Let’s be respectful to the area,” because the lesbians are considerate, Harold. Okay?
Ann: Mm-hm! Mm-hm! I want to mention, so then they sent away— Remember Mary Caryll, the servant? They’re like, “Can you send Mary to come and work with us?” And this is where I want to mention that this is great timing for Mary, who had recently been fired from her job working for Sarah’s family. Not as you might think, for helping Eleanor sneak in the window and feeding her cupboard food [Katie laughs], but because Mary threw a candelabra at another servant so hard that it seriously wounded the other person. This earned her the nickname Moll the Bruiser.
Katie: Like, how strong is her arm? Even a candelabra, like, you are…
Ann: A candelabra is not a heavy object, necessarily.
Katie: I mean, it’s big enough, really. I mean, if it’s a candelabra, it’s the one that’s got the several… Like, at least three candles, you know? It’s not necessarily that heavy, but how strong is your arm that you’re flacking that to, like, wound somebody? A proper wound?
Ann: I know. It was described as like, she threw it at them, but I think you have to hit someone with it to wound them, with a candelabra. Unless the candles were lit on it. Was the person also burned? I don’t know.
Katie: Yeah, I like to think that she’s just got a really super strong, like, League of Their Own arm, just like, kapffft! You know?
Ann: Yeah. So, Moll the Bruiser moves in with them. It’s like these two lesbians, and their maid, and they’re living in Wales. So, one might think, you know, I don’t know, frankly, anything about Wales in the late 18th century. How were these two welcomed into this town? And it turns out they became quickly beloved. This is partially because Betty, the cousin, who is still there for her. She was like, you know, she was a wealthy, important person in County Kilkenny, and so she sent letters to Wales, she had an influential friend who lived there, Anne Hill-Trevor, Lady Dungannon, and she said, “Hey, this is my ward. She’s actually really great. And this is her very good friend and roommate. Eleanor, can you be nice to them?” And Anne Hill-Trevor was like, “I shall be.” So then, when everyone saw that Anne Hill-Trevor was cool with them, everyone was like, “Great. Welcome. Welcome to Llangollen, you little hobbits.”
Katie: They’re very unoffensive as well. They were just there, just kind of existing. It wasn’t as if they were out, like, causing big, dramatic scenes in town.
Ann: No, exactly. This is the thing: The most exciting thing these two ever did was run away. And as soon as they got away, they’re just like, “Great. Let’s just set up a domestic life. Let’s adopt some dogs. Let’s do some farming.” Like, all they wanted was this quiet life, and they got it! So, it’s like, why would anyone hate that? Why?
Katie: Why?
Ann: You know, I think it’s also in terms of history and stuff, it’s like, well, you know, who was accepting of a same sex relationship? This small northern Welsh town in the late 18th century. So, get it together, the world of 2025. These people didn’t care. Anne… what was her name? Anne Hill-Trevor was cool with it, so why aren’t you?
So, Sarah and Eleanor. It’s such a weird thing; they tried to run away, they were brought back. And then the family was like, “Leave and never come back,” and they’re like, “Okay.” And because they did that… So, they didn’t cut off contact with their families because the families still help them out financially, which is crucial here because…
Katie: They’re women from the past, so legally, you know, they don’t really have access to funds or, a lot of the time, employment.
Ann: Exactly. They need funding somehow. They’re renting the “new hall.” They need money, so the family was still helping out financially. And then… Just, they’re so cute! [giggles] They’re so cute and sweet.
So, articles about the ladies and their beautiful home started to be shared in fashionable magazines of the era, which meant the people, the superstars of the Regency era, heard about them, and they were like, “We want to go see these little lesbians. Let’s go to Wales.” And this is when they became the Ladies of Llangollen. So, their visitors included Lord Byron, who…
Katie: [with disgust] Augh! [both laugh] Sorry. Oh, Byron.
Ann: He’s never not going to be in every episode this series.
Katie: Oh, the rake! The rake! [laughs]
Ann: The amount of times I’ve heard about Lord Byron researching literally anyone, it’s like, “Oh, and he was a regular dinner guest at this person.” I’m like, how many dinners a day was this man having that he’s a regular dinner guest at all of these homes? So, anyway. But of course, Lord Byron.
Katie: He never had to feed himself. I think he just, like, that was his thing. He would just go and have to deal with other people, like, all the time.
Ann: He’s clearly never in his own house, yeah. And he’s just going to Wales, hanging out with the ladies? Sure.
Katie: I think he just survived on compliments, really. And that’s why he was travelling everywhere, because he just needed that to survive, not necessarily food as sustenance. Because he’s like, “I’m Lord Byron,” and everyone’s like, “Hey, cool. Aren’t you the guy who shagged his sister?” Sorry, half-sister… apparently, that’s important. But yeah.
Ann: So, Lord Byron went to hang out there and that, and I’m sure he probably went back, and when he was having dinner with literally everybody, he’d be like, “You know who I went to visit is these lesbians in Wales,” and everyone was like, “Ooh, I should see them, too.” Percy Shelley also went there. There’s something about the, like, romantic poets really liked the way that they were living off the land. People just found this really lovely. And the Ladies of Llangollen…
Katie: I really find them very cute. It’s so adorable.
Ann: They encourage their visitors to write poetry about them.
Katie: As you would! As. You. Would.
Ann: I encourage my visitors to write poetry about me. No one has. But maybe!
Katie: I will visit you, and I’ll write you a haiku. That’s… I’ll do it, okay? Here’s a plan.
Ann: Thank you. Likewise. So, the ladies encouraged people… These poems by Lord Byron, Percy Shelley, like, famous poets, were coming out about them, and it helped cultivate kind of their fame. So, I’m not going to read this whole thing, but William Wordsworth wrote a whole poem about visiting them, and it ends with “Sisters in love, a love allowed to climb even on this earth above the reach of time.”
Katie: [big, satisfied sigh] It’s just lovely. They’re just lovely little lesbians just loving their lives. And that’s it. That’s it.
Ann: That’s the thing. It’s this is where… Because at first, I was like, “Oh, maybe I’ll do an episode about them,” but all I knew about them was this era where it’s like, well, they’re just these nice little lesbians having their house, cultivating their garden. I don’t think there’s an episode there. This is just a nice thing. But no! There’s all the drama beforehand, so that’s where I’m like, okay, this is a good story to tell.
But yeah, so they’re just living their life, they’re having this amazing time, and an article about them was posted in a journal called La Belle Assemble, and this caught the eye. So, when we’re recording this, it hasn’t come out yet, but a few weeks ago, I did post an episode about Anne Lister.
Katie: [gasps] Anne Lister!
Ann: The other most famous lesbian of this era, Anne Lister, read about them, and she was just like, “Lesbians? Well, I have to go see them, too!” This is where in the previous episode, the Anne Lister episode, which, if people haven’t heard it, they should, but one of my guests was saying how moving it is to see, like, in this era, to go to see your queer elders, that Anne Lister was able to go and see people living this life. Like, because Anne Lister had been wanting to get a wife and settle down, and so she’s like, “Oh, I’m going to talk to the ladies. How did they figure this out?” Because there’s rumours that the ladies had had some sort of commitment ceremony, and Anne Lister was like, “What was that like?” So, the fact that she got to see them is really lovely, I think. She headed down to Wales. And Anne Lister is very famous for having written down every thought that ever crossed her mind, but she wrote…
Katie: Those journals. [Ann chuckles] I tried. I read some. I tried. I don’t have enough hours in the day. Like, she did literally write everything; every thought she’s ever thought, every idea, every consideration. And yet… No, I had to stop. It was just too much.
Ann: It’s pretty epic. Again, like listeners, if you haven’t heard the Anne Lister episode from like two weeks ago, one of my guests is one of the people who worked on transcribing the diaries, so she has them all there in front of her, so she can do a word search to see, like, how often did she say this word? But it’s such a massive thing. You need to do a control F search like, “Oh, did she ever mention Caroline of Brunswick? Doo-doo-doo.” You can’t just read it. It’s massive.
Anyway. But part of this, Anne Lister wrote about going to visit the Ladies of Llangollen. “There is something in their story, and then all I’ve heard about them here that added to other circumstances makes a deep impression.” So basically, she’s just like, “These are my queer elders, and I’m so excited to see them.” At this point, the ladies have been living there for 40 years. When I say they’re her queer elders, they’re, like, 80 years old. So, Anne Lister went to see… She was only able to see one of them, I think, because one of them… We’ll get to that.
But I do just want to backtrack and say, so they’ve been living these cute little hobbit lesbians for more than 40 years, living in— How do you say it? Plas…
Katie: Plas Newydd.
Ann: Plas Newydd for more than 40 years. Like, they’re just pillars of the community at this point. Their relationship was— They’re so famous, right? Although, I will say, they did not let anybody paint their portrait. It’s like, “Write poems about me, but don’t take my picture. No one can know what I look like, but write about how great I am.” So, this kind of lent to their air of mystery.
Katie: Their mystique.
Ann: It’s a lovely thing. Their relationship was widely understood to be a marriage, which it was by, you know, just common law laws of today. Like, they were two people who had been together for 40-plus years. For instance, Caroline of Brunswick, this is Caroline’s Corner. In these Regency era episodes, when she shows up, we call it Caroline’s Corner. So, she wrote:
Lady Eleanor Butler and Mademoiselle Ponsonby must be mad, I should think, to choose to leave the world and set up in a hermitage in Wales. But to each their own. It would not be my preference. I do dread being married to a lady friend. Men are tyrants, but the women, heaven help us! They are true Neros over those they rule.
Katie: Caroline needs better friends, I think, really. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah, if she’s like she’s married to George, like she’s married to Prinny, George IV.
Katie: [sigh of disgust] George.
Ann: And she’s like, she’s like, “Oh, I would never want to live with a female friend.” It’s like, bitch, what?
Katie: That’s because you’re surrounded by awful women. I’m sorry, Caroline, but you need… I’m travelling to the past to be like, “Bitch! Please.”
Ann: Yeah. I’m thinking through her story as well, which I know incredibly, too well, almost. I’m like, yeah, she had some close lady friends, but she kind of went from friend to friend to friend, and the friendships kind of burnt out, always. Her most steadfast partner was she had this Italian servant lover later on. Anyway. You know, it’s like Caroline of Brunswick wrote this, but she was just writing a letter. She just kind of like talked shit a lot anyway. But the fact that she had heard of them, she’s saying, like, “They’re mad to go live in a hermitage in Wales.” And it’s like, well, Caroline, like you went to live in effectively that in Italy. Eventually, at a certain age, we all just want to live in a little farmhouse, I think.
Katie: At some point, we all just want to be lesbians in a cottage. Like, that’s…
Ann: Don’t we all? And you know what? Yeah, like they were clearly lesbians, comma, and I think two ladies who are not lesbians, I think it would be nice to live together in a hermitage in Wales. I think this just sounds, to me, a lovely, lovely way to live.
Anyway, so the cottage. Here’s a description of it. So, they were like HGTV, home renovation lesbians. They had turned their home into “a Gothic fantasy.” So, here’s Anthony Delaney, where I got a lot of information about them from his book, The Queer Enlightenment. He writes:
They added intricately carved oak panelling that had been reclaimed from much older churches to the walls and dramatic stained glass throughout. The gardens had been artistically remodelled to small Gothic follies, such as an imitation ancient ruin, littered the grounds, whilst a collection of exotic fruit thrived in the greenhouse. Around the garden, pinned to carefully chosen trees, poetry extracts fluttered in the Welsh winds.
Poetry is pinned to the trees! Poetry about them, presumably.
Katie: I mean, maybe. Maybe just other poetry also. Maybe the poets, when they were there, wrote things, and they were like, “Okay, that’s going on the poetry tree.”
Ann: It sounds lovely. And if you’ve been living in the same estate for 40 years, you have time to really make your mark on it. So, I love that they have exotic fruit growing in their greenhouse!
Katie: I love the fact there’s little follies, like there is more than one. Follies exist, like, a lot of follies exist to give work to people. They’re just like, “Oh, we’ve seen somebody do that. Let’s us do that, too. But also, let’s go deep. Let’s go back.”
Ann: “Let’s also make some imitation ancient ruins.” They’re just…
Katie: [squeals] Yeah! I love it!
Ann: Why not? “Our families are sending us money. Let’s just get some stained-glass windows from cathedrals. Let’s just reclaim the wood from the old church.” Like, it’s beautiful! What they’re doing is beautiful.
Katie: “Somebody find us a stonemason because we need to get this replication ancient ruin together. Let’s do it.” I love that.
Ann: And it’s beautiful, and this is why people go there to visit. It’s like, yeah, this is a real destination. You’re going to see a lot of stuff.
So, at the time Anne Lister arrived, Mary was very ill with… She’s, like, in her eighties, late eighties, early nineties, and it’s the olden days, so like, yeah, she’s ill. She’s ill, so when Anne Lister comes, she’s only able to meet with Eleanor. Oh, wait! No, Eleanor’s the older one. Eleanor is 67, Mary is younger. Oh! So, Mary’s not even that old. She’s maybe in her fifties, and she’s ill. Anyway, Anne Lister arrived, and she’s able to meet 67-year-old Eleanor, but not Mary. So, she wrote… This is quite rich coming from Anne Lister, noted for her unconventional style of dress. She was like:
Eleanor, a very odd figure, dressed in a blue, shortish-waisted cloth riding habit, the jacket unbuttoned shewing a plain plated frilled habit shirt – a thick white cravat, rather loosely put on – hair powdered, parted, down the middle in front, cut to a moderate length all round and hanging straight, tolerably thick.
Like, she’s wearing a fucking cravat. Eleanor is just like…
Katie: I’m sorry, but that sounds amazing, right? That is a style!
Ann: Incredible, incredible. And also, the short hair, I think, is notable and interesting. But the fact that she’s got her hair powdered at this time, like in the mid-1800s, that’s a very old-fashioned thing to do. So, these are just, sort of, old ladies, wearing a cravat, a frilled shirt. It’s just like, yes, please!
Katie: I think sometimes you find a look and, you know, that’s your style, and you just stick with it. I love that for her.
Ann: I love it. I love it. There’s a woman who I used to work with who clearly found her look in 1987, and I was just like, “Oh, this is startling. What hairstylist do you go to who gives you this, like, feathered perm?” But it’s like, it did suit her. So, it’s like, you find a look. And she wore a lot of like chenille-patterned sweaters, where it’s like “You are from 1987. That is you.”
Katie: I love a chenille-patterned sweater, let me tell you. Augh! I miss the Sweater Shop. Oh, the Sweater Shop used to make so many weird and wonderful… Just bring back weird sweaters. It started, it has started. There has been a resurgence. But I want more.
Ann: I feel like, you know, the ugly Christmas sweater? I think if that can spread into year-round whimsical sweaters, I’m happy about it.
Katie: Especially when I live somewhere so cold all the time.
Ann: You gotta! You gotta. My mother, she would knit for us when we were kids, so we would get the pattern books of the, like, whimsical sweaters.
Katie: Yes!
Ann: And you’d choose one.
Katie: My gran did that!
Ann: They’d send her the kit, and she would knit. I have this one sweater that had a dinosaur, like a stegosaurus that went across it, and then it went down the arm, and then there’s little sticky-up little triangles.
Katie: [gasps excitedly] Yes! The little fins! That’s not the word for it. Thank god my son isn’t here because he would be telling me the correct one.
Ann: I don’t know what they’re called. And I was that dinosaur kid, so I just had this like, dinosaur— Anyway, bring back some sweaters, bring up some frilled shirts, some cravats.
Katie: Bring back cravats. Yes!
Ann: Cravats for ladies. So, Anne Lister said, she did say, you know, like, “Whoa! What a weird outfit.” Which, like, again, very rich coming from Anne Lister, noted for her bananas outfits. Anyway, Anne Lister said Eleanor had a certain je ne sais quoi. Like, yeah, she does. Yeah. These ladies are fantastic.
And I just want to also say… While they were widely understood to be in a marriage by everybody, including Caroline of Brunswick, they never publicly stated that they were in a romantic or a sexual relationship. But it’s like, why? They just had people come and visit them and write poetry about them. They’re not, like, making statements to the press, they’re not going on Instagram, being like…
Ann: “Watch me kiss my wife!” [laughs] No.
Ann: No. So, they never said anything about it. But this is also kind of like, reputation… Like you were saying about her dad, it’s like “This is too scandalous. My daughter keeps running away. I’m just going to cut her off.” Why would they come forward? They need the financial support of their families, they need public acceptance. They’re not going to be like, “Hello, we are lesbians.” But it’s like we are two people who have loved each other very much and have lived together for 40 years. Your actions speak strongly about what’s going on. Anyway, they presented themselves as very devoted friends. As we say, historically, very good friends, roommates. Whenever newspapers or pamphlets hinted that they were lesbians, they sometimes would consider taking legal action about them, but they never actually did, because that’s too much drama and that’s not their vibe.
So, I have a quote here. There’s a book called Mad and Bad: Real Heroines of the Regency by Bea Koch, which is a fantastic reference just to learn about all these people. But she writes, I think, very… She explains this whole thing very well. She says:
Ever since the ladies’ elopement, there’s been debate about the sexual nature of the relationship, one that has continued through years of scholarship. The ladies have long been considered in the tradition of romantic friendship. There is another very different school of thought that situates the ladies firmly in the middle of the gay and lesbian liberation movement.
What is clear is that the ladies made unconventional choices that were accepted, if sometimes questioned by their contemporaries. Rather than declare them lesbians or any other sexual identity, queer seems to fit the ladies best. As David Halperin notes, queer is by definition, whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant. The ladies certainly fit within that tradition. They courted respectability while also refusing to conform to the expected.
So, in terms of like, and I’m sure in all of your research, too, when you’re looking at people from history who we would now consider queer, none of them are being like, “We’re here! We’re queer!” They’re all just kind of like, “This is just me. Here’s what I’m up to.”
Katie: Yeah. It’s difficult with a lot of things, even when we talk about everything from sexuality to even feminism, because our modern perception of what that is, it’s like, it’s trying to understand how it was back then and how… Like, nowadays we don’t have shame. Shame isn’t a real thing. We don’t really have it anymore; we’re quite happy to embarrass ourselves daily, and we’re not really that affected by even peer pressure to an extent. Whereas back then, like, your life would be over. You would have nothing worth living. Your reputation was your goal; you needed to have that, and you needed to have the respect of everyone around you because it could very easily… Like, you might not be able to get food from the market because they wouldn’t want to sell to you. You would not have people, you would have no friends because nobody would want to talk to you because you were deemed the outwith of society, you know?
Honour and reputation were huge, huge, for centuries. It was very important, and now we’re just going like, “Meh!” But when you come to those, kind of, like, sexuality and LGBTQ, it’s hard to put a label on it because the manner in which they live their lives was so different. You even see it with a lot of trans people in history, like Dr. James Barry, and it’s like, would they be considered trans? Because we don’t know their exact motivations behind it. Would they prefer to have lived their life as a woman doctor? Or did they want to be a male doctor? You know, we don’t know, we cannot say one way or the other, but we can use as much of the context clues as possible to try and be respectful to the person who did exist. You know?
Ann: Yeah. And I think it’s also meaningful for people today who are members of the LGBTQ community to find people in the past who seem to have a similar experience to them, however they define themselves. It’s like, I think the Ladies of Llangollen, Anne Lister, like these are lesbian icons. And so, to people who are like, “Well, they never said they were lesbians.” It’s like, “No. But Harold, like they were clearly…”
Katie: “They wouldn’t! That’s not a thing you did.”
Ann: Yes, that’s not a reason to discount the fact that clearly these women were in… Like, they ran away together twice. They clearly have a romantic situation going on. So, this is where I’m happy to have you on the podcast as well, and my guests from the Anne Lister episode too, because like, I want to lean into the elements of queer history, but you have to read so much between the lines, really, to put it together. I don’t want to, like, prescribe an identity onto a person, but it’s like, well, here’s how maybe this would have been accepted now, and here’s how people saw them then. Yeah.
Katie: I always think it’s interesting the way that we present these stories now, actually. So, especially when we do it in media, especially visual media, because whenever they do, like Anne Lister especially, whenever they… they have her in men’s clothing. And it’s like, that’s not quite what she did. She was dressed masculine for the era, but it was more… But it’s not as a man. Like, the Ladies of Llangollen, they dressed in these slight masculine fits, but they weren’t dressed as men specifically. And because the modern era, because of how we view the fashion, you know, we see it in such a specific binary that we don’t really recognize that subtlety, you know? We don’t really connect with it, that’s why they’re always presented as even more masculine than they were, you know?
Ann: No, that’s such a good point. Because today, we’re in an era where, like, to see a woman wearing trousers is not like, “Oh! Shocking!” Like, we’re so used to that. Or Diane Keaton or somebody who wears a necktie – RIP, Diane Keaton, by the way. So, when you’re putting it in a film, it’s like “We have to make clear that what this person is wearing is unusually masculine for the time.” So, then they turn that into like, “What if she’s wearing a three-piece suit?” It’s complex, but it’s interesting, and it’s beautiful. Also, I love the mystique of the ladies, because like, what did they look like? We only have descriptions of them because they refused to have portraits done. Hang on.
So,1809. Mary passed away in 1809, and so Eleanor commissioned a memorial in St. Collen’s Cemetery. So, Mary, the maid, Mary Caryll, it’s like, we love Mary. Frisk, I’m sure it’s long gone, but there’s been other dogs. Mary has been the one servant; she was with them this whole time. So, the ladies commissioned this memorial called “To our matchless Mary.” It’s beautiful! To a servant? Like, people didn’t do that, ever.
Katie: Yeah. That’s it. They still remember her opening that wee window, that’s it.
Ann: So, in 1829, 20 years later, Eleanor died age 89 and was buried next to Mary, because the three of them lived at Plas Newydd for what? 50 years together or something. They had a real… They didn’t have any other servants other than her, I don’t think. Anyway, so Eleanor died and was buried next to Mary, and then Sarah died two years later, and she was laid next to the other two. They encouraged poetry to be written about them, but they refused to pose for portraits. But one of their guests – and I feel like this is like me or you, Katie, if we went to visit them, we’re like, “Oh, okay. We’re not allowed to draw you? I’m just going to secretly draw you.” So, one of their guests, Mary Parker, secretly drew some sketches of them. Like, “What are you doing over there?” “I’m just writing poetry about you. Don’t worry about it.”
Katie: “Don’t look, don’t look. It’s not done. It’s not done. I’m still at early stages.” “What are you doing?” “I’m rubbing out what I said. I’m not shading.”
Ann: [laughs] So, she surreptitiously drew some sketches of them, and then after they died, she turned these into a watercolour image of the two ladies sitting in their very full library. So, apparently, Plas Newydd was sold a year after the ladies had died, but Mary Parker got access to it so she could sketch the library for authenticity to make sure that the background of her picture looked good. And then this is all sort of like… This got turned into this… So, she took these sketches, made a watercolour, then the watercolour was translated into print by Richard James Lane, and an impression of it can be found in the Audley End collection. So, I’ll put a link in this episode to the print, based on the sketches. So, they’re looking at their most Bilbo Baggins-est in this picture. And there’s a cat!
Katie: I love… I love this picture. I just… They’re sooo… They’re just cute little lesbians. And their library!
Ann: Cute lesbians and their library. And the fact that she went into there to sketch the library to make sure it was authentic, so you know they had, like, one gazillion books, but also, they have whatever, an hourglass and, like, a little dog-shaped paperweight, and all these little odds and ends.
Katie: Of course they did! They just seem like the dog paperweight type people. I love that.
Ann: Yeah, not that they travelled themselves, I think they only ever stayed there. But they are the sort of people today who would go to a gift shop, and they’d be like, “Oh, do you have anything shaped like a dog? Great.” And they would just have a lot of knick-knacks all shaped like dogs. They’re such cute little people with their little cravats. Anyway, they are adorable, and I love the secret portrait.
Katie: [laughs] I just love that it’s like, “What are you doing?” “Nothing… Nothing.”
Ann: “I just write in a very looping scrawl. My handwriting is very artistic, one might say.”
So anyway, you can visit Plas Newydd. It is now run as a museum by the Denbighshire… I don’t know, run by county council in that region of Wales. Their three-person memorial can also be visited as well. I think if you’re like going on a lesbian or even an overall queer history tour of Ireland, the UK, like, I think you’re going to hit up, like, Anne Lister, the church where she got married. You’re going to hit up Plas Newydd. These are just where you’re going. Like, this is where you’re going to see this grave. These are the sites to see. And I’m happy… Actually, this is on my itinerary now as well. I would love to go to Wales and see this house, to see how much of what they did is still there. Do they have all the follies? Do they have the artificial ancient ruins? Like, I want to see all these design choices.
Katie: Wouldn’t that be amazing if they still had those little ruins there? That’d be amaaazing! [gasps]
Ann: The fake ruins. And so, at the end… So, this season, because I’m doing the Regency era, at the end of the season, we’re going to choose a Diamond of the Season, like they do in Bridgerton. Part of that decision is going to be based on the scores they get in four categories, and Katie, we’ve done this before. If you could help me determine the scores for the Ladies collectively, as one unit.
So, the first category, these are all scores, just to remind everybody, this is a score out of 10. The first category is Scandaliciousness. How scandalous were they? And this is interesting because they weren’t at all for most of their life, but the running away was very scandalous. And frankly, the whole teacher-student relationship might have raised…
Katie: I feel like we’re at a 6 for scandal, you know? Because there’s, like, a little bit, and then they’re just kind of there. So, like, I think that beginning stage, I think about a 6.
Ann: I like that because it was high scandal at the beginning and then just, like, decades of just domestic homecore.
Katie: Of just existing, just being there. Actual cottagecore lesbians, like, actual…
Ann: Literal! Literal. [Katie laughs] This is where it came from. They invented the whole thing; that is them. Maybe that’s what I’m going to call the episode.
Anyway. The next category is Schemieness. How schemey were they? Now, in the beginning, very, with the running away plans. But also, just the way that they figured out a way to live their life and be able to do it by just, like, being so welcoming to people, having the poems written about them. They kind of made themselves celebrities, and that sort of helped ensure that they were able to keep going because they just became these beloved fixtures.
Katie: I think they just probably seemed quite nice to be around, because there’s no way you could survive through all that and not have some bad stuff written about you. So, I don’t think they were necessarily schemey, except for the first part.
Ann: The beginning, right? Yeah.
Katie: And I’d say we’re like, a 3 or a 4 on that, because even their schemes weren’t that schemey. It was like, “Leave and get to port. Hide in a cupboard.”
Ann: The schemes were not…
Katie: As well thought out as one could have… Yeah. You know?
Ann: Yeah, exactly.
Katie: We’re kind of low on the scheme scale.
Ann: Climb out a window, hide in a cupboard. It’s like, did you think no one would find you, ever? Like, yeah. They had schemes…
Katie: That one guy! That one guy.
Ann: Who was that guy?
Katie: Who was that one guy?
Ann: Okay, the next category is their Significance, and that is to history, but also to queer history. I think this is a very high score.
Katie: Oh, we’re talking a 9 or a 10 for that.
Ann: I think a 10. I think they are, to queer history, like, they’re up there.
Katie: I think because they survived. Not only just survived, but they lived a life together that they wanted, and I think it’s so rare to see that, like, throughout history, that I think they deserve that high scale, because, yeah. Our cottagecore lesbians: 10 out of 10.
Ann: I think absolutely. So, there’s a new season of Bridgerton coming up, speaking of the Regency era. [Katie laughs] And so, in the previous season…
Katie: The way your eyes roll whenever you say “Bridgerton.” [laughs]
Ann: I’m excited. I’m excited for the tie-in that Bridgerton brings to my book and to this series of the podcast. But I’m rolling my eyes at the Bridgerton fans who were upset that they were foreshadowing… There’s clearly going to be a lesbian plot line coming up in a subsequent season. I don’t think it’s in this season, probably, it might be in the next one. In the books, there was a love story that was a man and a woman, and on the TV show, they’ve changed the man character to a woman. And some people were freaking out about it, where it’s just like, first of all, it’s Bridgerton, like, this is not historical accuracy. But also people like “There wasn’t lesbians in the Regency!” And that’s part of where it was really important to me to do these episodes early on, to be like…
Katie: “There weren’t lesbians in the past!”
Ann: I was like, what are you talking about?
Katie: “What? What?!”
Ann: Yeah. Like, Anne Lister and every one of her partners, the Ladies of Llangollen. But also, I think in terms of, like, the Bridgerton thing, these were from upper-class families, Eleanor and Sarah. Like, this is an example of how people from elite society could live in this way, and it would be okay, and their families wouldn’t disown them. Like, to anyone who’s like, “How dare Bridgerton go woke?” or whatever. It’s like, um, there’s enormous amounts of precedent, actually. And that’s part of where, like, the Significance score of 10. I just think to have them there as an example of a historical queer, thriving, happy life is…
Katie: With their little follies and their dogs. And their very full library, which I respect so much.
Ann: Well, because they were both big nerds to begin with. I feel like that’s probably where they first connected. Like, they just loved reading, they loved books, they loved dogs, they loved… landscaping.
Katie: [laughs and sighs] I love that.
Ann: They’re so cute. They probably cut each other’s hair, or maybe Mary cut their hair. So, the last category.
Katie: She only knew how to do one style. [laughs]
Ann: Bowl cut. [laughs]
Katie: [laughs] That’s why it was split in the middle and powdered. They were like, “That’ll do!” Have people started— Yes. Still a look. [laughs]
Ann: Yeah. The last category is what I call the Sexism Bonus, and this is where I give bonus points to people who maybe could have accomplished more had they not been living under the patriarchy. But I think these two, other than the beginning of their life, like, it didn’t… It’s not a high score. I think they found ways to live their truth within the confines of patriarchal society.
Katie: Yeah. I mean, because what they needed as women is they needed the money from their families. They still needed to be respectable within that patriarchal society, which is why they never went, “We’re lesbians!” They’re just like, “We love each other as people love…” But even… That’s something we actually forget about today, is that even back then, like, same sex friendships, they would still talk about love and how they loved each other, and that was a very, very normal, normal thing. So, because that precedent was already there, it’s not exactly being like, “Scandal! Shock and horror!” So, it did make it easier for them in a sense. But, you know, being a spinster was typically seen as an odd thing anyway. But they managed to thrive one way or the other.
Ann: That’s the thing. For sure, like, they needed the support of their male relatives because, you know, women couldn’t, whatever, own property and things like that. They made it work, but they did still need that help. So, I’m going to… I don’t know. I feel this is like a 2 or a 3 or something.
Katie: Yeah, it’s fairly low on that scale. Fairly low.
Ann: I think so. Let me see. So, this is a 23 out of 40 is their total score. I do want to say, in terms of this series and choosing the Diamond of the Season. So, like on Dancing with the Stars, Strictly Come Dancing, there’s a judges’ score, but there’s going to also be the audience score. So, everybody’s coming into this with our judges’ score, and then later, the listeners will vote on who’s… I would love it if the Ladies of Llangollen win Diamond of the Season. [both laugh] They would show up to a ball in their cravats, like…
Katie: A frilled shirt and a cravat.
Ann: The powdered, bowl-cut hair.
Katie: [laughs] They’d be fab.
Ann: Oh, my gosh. It’s just so funny that Anne Lister was like, “Oh, what a strange outfit they’re wearing.” Like, bitch, what are you wearing? What are you talking about?
Katie: Like, honey, no. Pot meet kettle.
Ann: I’ve seen your hairstyle, Anne Lister. You had portraits taken, and your hair is bananas, and you’re like, “Oh! Look at them with their powdered hair.” Like, I’m sorry.
I’m just trying to get some… Well, firstly, my cat is trying to jump on the keyboard, so I’m keeping her at bay. Secondly, I’m trying to find some notable people who have a similar score to let you know Jane Austen has a 22. Ladies of Llangollen, 23. So, this is the Regency neighbourhood. [meow] Hepburn, the cat.
Katie: Hello meow! [laughs]
Ann: 40 out of 40 for you, my darling. But yeah, because also, like similarly, Jane Austen found ways to thrive in a patriarchal society, and she lived a pretty low-key life. I do not know if Jane Austen ever wrote about the Ladies of Llangollen, but I’m sure she would have known about them because everybody did.
So, Katie, thank you so much. I truly could not have done this without you, and I couldn’t think of a better topic to talk about with you. Can you let everybody know how… If there’s one person listening who doesn’t know who you are and where to find you on the internet, where can they find you and listen to your podcast and watch your videos and things?
Katie: You can find me… [laughs] I’m just watching a cat go across the screen. You can find me on most of the social medias. I’m on Facebook, Instagram, other places, TikTok. So, on TikTok and Facebook, I’m still in as @WhoDidWhatNowPod. But on Instagram and Threads, I am under my actual name, @KatieCharlwood. You can also find my podcast, Who Did What Now!, The History Podcast That is Not Your History Class, on every major podcasting app that is not YouTube. So, that’s where you can find me.
Ann: And they can also find you in person doing live shows every now and then. Where can they find that information?
Katie: Oh, so that is on my website, WhoDidWhatNowPod.com. So, there is currently a little European… I say European. It’s basically currently the UK and Ireland at the moment, while I’m getting things together. Next year, we’re hoping to do… I say “we,” as if I’m not the only person involved in this, a special tour called “Oops! I’m in Canada!” where I’m going to try and find lots of small venues, I’ve got a few already on a list. I have a spreadsheet, it’s very organized. It’s basically around about… Before winter sets in, because I don’t need to be that level of cold because Canada, no. I love you, but I’m already bad enough.
Ann: I will say as a person in Canada, while there is enthusiasm to go to live events in the winter, we get like the Ladies, and we just stay in our houses and just think about interior design for the cold. If you want audiences, yeah, don’t come in the winter.
Katie: Yeah. So, I think I’m going to go when it’s not too cold. That’s my goal. So, if I don’t get it into fully fruition by the end of next year, it will be the beginning of the following year. But the plans are being laid for a… And it’s literally all these small venues in these sort of smaller towns, a few border towns as well, close to the US. So, it’s basically I’m trying to get to the places where people normally have to travel out of to get to somewhere, just because I think it’s more fun to have a lot of these small little tours over, like, ten days for a certain region, and then I’ll be gone for another two weeks, and then I’ll come back for another two weeks. It’s going to be a fun one! I’m going to be very tired, but I’ve heard there’s good food in Canada, so I’m very happy.
Ann: There is very good food in Canada, and I have to imagine that we’ll be able to meet up at one of these stops, presumably. And hopefully, hopefully next year, maybe, we can have our long-awaited Caroline of Brunswick Pub, Caroline of Brunswick live episode.
Katie: It’s great because I do have contacts for the Caroline of Brunswick.
Ann: I mean, it’s happening. It’s just like, when? It’s just when.
Katie: It’s just when!
Ann: I just need to confirm when my book is being published there and then, and then we can proceed. But yeah, that’s the other thing, too. I’ve been coming across Lord Byron. Everyone has him as a dinner guest, but Caroline of Brunswick’s husband, George, everybody, everybody was going to Brighton to hang out with him. It’s like, you had Byron at your dinner, then you go to Brighton to hang out with this guy, and these two men were just, like, terrorizing the Regency. No wonder the Ladies of Llangollen were like, “We’re never leaving our little cottage.”
Katie: Yeah. “We’re happy here.”
Ann: “There’s gross men everywhere, and we don’t like that.”
Katie: No, no, no.
Ann: I think Hepburn thinks it’s time for me to go. So, I will just let the listeners know that you can follow me on social media, @VulgarHistoryPod, everywhere. And you can find it about my book, Rebel of the Regency: The Scandalous Saga of Caroline of Brunswick, Britain’s Uncrowned Queen. All the information is at RebelOfTheRegency.com, and everybody should preorder it. It’s coming out in North America in February, and it’s coming out in the UK and Ireland, question mark, hopefully then, too! I don’t know.
But anyway, thank you so much. I super appreciate this, couldn’t have done it without you. Next time I need some words pronounced, I know who to ask.
Katie: [laughs] Thank you! Thank you for having me.
Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Ann Foster, that’s me! Editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. Regency Era artwork by Karyn Moynihan. Social media videos Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at VulgarHistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get early, ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon for as low as one dollar a month at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. Vulgar History merchandise is available at VulgarHistory.com/Store for Americans and for everyone else at VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com for everyone else. Follow us on social media @VulgarHistoryPod and get in touch with me via email at VulgarHistoryPod@gmail.com.
References:
Learn more about Katie and Who Did What Now!
Here is the image of the notoriously private Ladies that one of their guests secretly drew of them, their pets, and their library (as discussed in the episode).
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Preorder info for Ann’s upcoming book, Rebel of the Regency!
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