Cleopatra Discussion (with Gina Berry)

Vulgar History Podcast

Cleopatra Discussion (with Gina Berry)

September 4, 2024

Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast. My name is Ann Foster, and this is a special episode! 

So, last week, we were revisiting the 2020 episode about Cleopatra. That was an episode from almost five years ago, it came out in February 2020, just pre-COVID. It was one of the first episodes of Vulgar History and the score I gave to Cleopatra was maybe not what I would give her now, and it was worth revisiting. And so, I approached my friend, friend of the podcast, Gina Berry, to see if she would come on to just, like, reassess Cleopatra, in terms of the scoring. 

I should have known better by now, [chuckles] when Gina and I get to talking. It’s not just a quick five-minute, “Let’s reassess her score,” it became a whole episode of its own. And so, I’m playing you… It’s kind of like our response, her response. She listened to the Cleopatra episode, which she did help me with the research of, back in 2020 as well. So, it’s just kind of a conversation between her and I and talking about Cleopatra and in the context of everything, [chuckles] everything, just in the context of everything. So, it’s myself, Gina Berry, who I know so many listeners I get… I never get as many kind messages and reviews of the podcast as when Gina is on. I know you all love her so I’m happy to bring her back on again, talking about another Egyptian queen. If you love this episode with Gina, go back and listen, she was on before for very lengthy episodes, talking about Nefertiti and talking about Hatshepsut as well, and I’m sure she’ll be on numerous times in the future as well. 

But anyway, this is myself and Gina Berry just talking about Cleopatra, Mark Antony’s thighs, just kind of like the whole situation and ultimately at the end of it reassessing where Cleopatra lands on this podcast’s Scandaliciousness Scale. So, enjoy!  

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Ann: So, this is a re-evaluation of Cleopatra, and I couldn’t do that without Gina Berry, who is [both chuckle] you’re an expert of Egypt, but also Roman history and Cleopatra is, like, both. So, this is where… This is in your bones, like, you know, this stuff. So, I had to bring you on. 

Gina: I always say that I’m really dangerous because I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little. So, there’s always going to be some random fact that’s going to pop up in my head, like, “Oh yeah, but then…!” So.

Ann: [laughs] Well, no, exactly. It’s like when the trailer came out for that new show with Julianne Moore and you were like, “Wait, which king is this?” And I’m like, oh! This is where I can help you! 

Gina: Exactly. 

Ann: I know a lot about this minutiae and this, like, random era. Yeah, that’s where I can step in. But all the Ancient Egypt stuff, I’m just like, “Oh my gosh, everyone called Cleopatra.” When you’re trying to read up about our ancestors, it’s like, oh, they’re all… They’re all called Cleopatra and Ptolemy. And it’s, like, 300 years. 

Gina: You know, at the same point, you’ve got an English history, you’ve got Mary, you’ve got Anne, you’ve got Catherine. You know, they didn’t vary too often. 

Ann: It’s a similar thing. I will tell you, I’ve just started reading some stuff about, like, the American Revolution era and I’m just like, “Thank you!” because you’ve got like Theodosia and Hercules and just, like, everyone’s got a great name and I can tell them apart and I appreciate that. Thank you, American History. 

Gina: Yes, that is very helpful. 

Ann: But yeah, so there’s two major things that I really want to talk with you about for this recording. One of them is at the end of this, we’re going to reevaluate Cleopatra’s score because I messed up, like… [both laugh] In my… The only defence I have is that was, like, one of my earliest episodes and I didn’t know kind of who would land where and what numbers people were going to get. And now that I’ve done so many more, it’s like, “No, this is not where she belongs. What was I doing?” So, you’re here to help with that, to right that wrong. [Gina chuckles] But also, and this is what you and I talk about all the time, you know, those reconstructions of like, “Here’s what this person really looked like,” and there was all of that discourse when the Netflix show about Cleopatra presenting her as a Black woman came out. And so, I really want to talk about that and what did she look like and that sort of stuff as well. 

Gina: Because, you know I always have ideas. [laughs]

Ann: Exactly! Exactly. I think we were messaging a lot during that era, but yeah… That’s the other thing with my podcast, I’m trying to, like, have themes and stick to it, but I’m just like, what about this? And I suddenly start reading about some… I told you I’m doing the American Revolution right now, but I’m just like, “Oh, but what about if I read about this, like, biblical-era Africa?” Anyway, so I’m always reading about different things as my attention wavers. 

I was reading about someone else, I won’t say who because I haven’t done the episode yet, but they really explained how in like the BC era, in like 0 and before then, and even after then, it wasn’t so much about, like, there wasn’t a race, right? There wasn’t, that wasn’t a thing. It was more like, “Are you from here? Or are you from there? What country are you from?” Like, “Who are your people?” So, to go back and to retroactively say, like, “Well, this person was a Black person,” or whatever, even a white person, it’s like, no, because they didn’t think like that. They just thought like, “Are you a royal? Are you important? Or are you, like, a peasant in the fields? Are you from Rome?” That was it. There wasn’t the other thing that was the race. So, already, right away, to look at Cleopatra through this lens is like, okay, okay, this is challenging. 

Gina: It’s interesting you bring that up because if you think about historians from Greece, from Rome, they were very detailed in how they recorded things. Granted, we all know they wrote the history the way they wanted it to be remembered, but they did pay attention to details. And no one that I know of ever talked about the hue of her skin and if that was really important to them, they would have— because I mean, they always wanted to go along the lines of, “Oh, she was this, she was that, she was something else.” If they really had an issue with the colour of a person’s skin, they would have used that to back their ideas of, “She was this, she was that, she was something else.” Because we all know that certain hues are viewed differently. 

So, I’m not saying she didn’t have any pigment, because let’s be honest, every documentary you read, even your previous podcast, you talked about how it was likely that there was some actual Egyptian DNA mixed up in there. And to think that there wasn’t, you’re just being naïve, that’s just not how it worked. The royals did who they wanted, and there was going to be some Egyptian women in there somewhere. So, it was a possibility she did have some Egyptian DNA. But just looking at the region that she lived in alone, she’s not going to be pale. She’s underneath that blistering Egyptian sun all the time. Now, granted, she’s not working in fields, so she wouldn’t be as dark as someone— Just like American slavery, if you worked in the house, you were going to be lighter than someone that worked in the field. She would be a little lighter than someone that was constantly out in the sun, but she still lived in a region where she would have a little bit darker skin tone. Not maybe as dark as even me, and I’m not really that dark. But, you know, she wouldn’t have been, like… They wouldn’t have never looked at her and thought, “Oh, she’s a Nubian.” You could definitely tell she was Egyptian to a certain point, but she’s not going to have pale skin, she’s not going to have dark skin. 

Either way, if it was important to anyone, they would have mentioned it. Caesar probably would have looked at her differently, Antony probably would have looked at her differently, Octavian absolutely would have used that to his advantage. So, it’s all about region. It’s all about country. It’s all about, like you said, are you Roman? Are you Assyrian? Are you Egyptian? Are you Greek?” That was it. They didn’t care about anything else. Even within Roman society, they didn’t necessarily look at, “Are you Jewish?” You know, they didn’t really care about that as much as, are you an actual Roman citizen? You can be a plebeian, you can be part of the upper echelon, doesn’t matter. Are you an Egyptian citizen? If you are, this is how your life’s going to go. Whether you have money or not, they didn’t care. [laughs] They just wanted to know, are you a Roman citizen? It was kind of the same in Egypt, I think, that they, I mean, and this is just based off of, not necessarily… I study more further back in BC, but at this point in BC, it was more of, are you an Egyptian citizen or are you a Roman citizen? They really looked at it the same way, I think. But I’m probably getting ahead of myself about what I’m about to actually say. 

So, no. I wouldn’t say that by our standards, we would call her a Black woman based on how we view skin tone. But I don’t believe she would have been as pearly white as the Romans that were roaming around the streets either, even given her Greek heritage, you know? 

Ann: Yeah. Well, and that’s… Two things. Firstly, like, obviously, you know, you don’t have 300 years of incestual brother-sister marriages and continue that family line. Like, that family line is going to die out if you’re not introducing someone else. 

Gina: Right. 

Ann: But at the same point, it’s like, of everyone, I just remember someone said this on, like, Twitter or something, when all the discourse was happening, if any historical person, that we can kind of know what their skin tone probably was, it’s Cleopatra, the woman who is the result of 300 years of incest. Even if there’s some, and there had to have been, like, her father was illegitimate, there were some Egyptian people in there. It’s like, yeah, but every generation… Her family tree is like a straight line, there’s not a really… But like you said, you know, if whatever her skin tone was, that wasn’t what was important to the haters. Every record we have of first from the Roman men who hated everything about her and if that mattered to them, they would have said something. So, whether she had dark skin, or how dark her skin was, didn’t matter in her lifetime to the people who were trying to talk shit about her. 

So, applying a modern lens to that is… I don’t know, that’s why it’s worth talking about, I think. And I didn’t look into this of like why people started thinking this, and I don’t know if it’s, like, Egypt is part of Africa. That was the series on Netflix, like, Queens of Africa, and when it was first announced, I’m like, “Oh, this is great. Like I can learn about some new people, maybe I can do podcasts about them or something.” And Egypt is part of Africa, but it’s often thought of more as, like, the Middle East, sort of thing, right? It’s in Africa, but historically, culturally… I think, and you would know better than I would, the people who lived there weren’t as dark complexion as people from like Nubia and other places further south. 

Gina: You’ve got to look at the relation of how close you live to the equator, really. You’re going to be a little darker in the southern parts of wherever than you are going to be in the northern parts. Like I said, I’m not overly dark. I was born and raised in Minnesota; there’s no sunlight in Minnesota most of the time, it’s usually raining or snowing. So, even if I wasn’t of mixed race, I probably still would have been a little bit lighter. If I spend any amount of time in the South, I come back a whole shade darker. That’s just the way it is, pertaining to how close you are to the equator, wherever you’re going to be, where it’s going to be warmer, you’re going to be darker. It’s going to be warmer where Sudan, typically Nubia, was. They’re naturally going to be darker. You’re way further north in Egypt. You’re not getting as much sun. You’re going to naturally be lighter. 

Plus, like you said, a lot of times people look at that more as a Middle East thing. Another thing that you’ve got to kind of take into consideration too is Egypt was conquered by a number of people…

Ann: Yes, yes!

Gina: … and ruled by said people for a number of years at each time. Well, again, just like saying that you’d have to be naive to think there wasn’t some sort of Egyptian DNA in Cleopatra, you’d have to be naive to think that there wasn’t some cross-mixing while they were being occupied by whoever it was that came after them. And typically, with the exception of when the Nubians took over, everyone that came and occupied them was a little bit lighter than they were. So, you’re going to get that lightening of the skin. So, I think that has something to do, just personal theory, I think that has something to do with the little bit lighter tone in the Egyptian race because that one might have got watered down a little bit [laughs] during some of these occupations. 

So, Egypt, even today, is kind of almost looked at as its own entity. They really considered themselves that way back then. It’s a fact. Ancient Egypt really truly believed that they were above everyone else around them. And it’s not just Egypt that thought that about themselves; Rome thought that about themselves, Greece thought that about themselves. So, whoever has a larger populace is going to automatically think “We’re gods on Earth.” So, over the years, I think people kind of felt like they were looking at Egypt as really not necessarily being African, not necessarily being Middle Eastern, it’s just Egypt. It’s just Egypt. 

So, I think that contributed to a lot of the discourse that happened when that show came out of them. And the young lady they used for Cleopatra wasn’t even that dark. She’s a little darker than me, but not really by much. So, they really didn’t use, I mean, they could have used Viola Davis, then people would have really had an issue with that. [laughs] But the young lady they used wasn’t even that dark. But still, it turned into the way we view skin colour, that’s a Black woman, and that wasn’t acceptable because it has always been thought that Cleopatra, being of Macedonian descent, would just automatically have no pigment. 

I honestly don’t really have… I can’t say that I believe she was Black, I can’t say I believe she was just white. I just think that she had the skin tone of the typical person that lived in Egypt at that time. Unless you’re just full-blood Egyptian, you’re going to be a little darker. But I think she just had the skin tone of people at that time, which is why, again, besides the fact that they didn’t really view skin tone as that important, I just think that’s why they didn’t say anything about it. I think that’s why they just didn’t use it to try to push any other narrative because she just kind of blended in, I think. 

Ann: Well, and then I think it’s so interesting. I think when I did this episode, I sent you the one about Cleopatra’s daughter, Cleopatra Selene, and how she was taken in by Rome, and then she was married to a Nubian prince, and then they went back to Africa, and they clearly had children. Those would be mixed-race children. 

Gina: Technically, yeah.

Ann: In terms of skin tone. 

Gina: She probably… Little Cleo would have been pretty light. 

Ann: Absolutely. 

Gina: She probably would not have had any sort of African features whatsoever considering Cleopatra probably didn’t have a whole lot, and obviously Antony wouldn’t have any. So, Selene would have just appeared to be, I think, Roman. I think she just would have… I mean, if she was walking in the streets of Rome, she would have blended in perfectly, I think. 

Ann: That was the story where it sort of cemented for me the fact that it was all about nationality versus skin tone or race. The fact that she was from Egypt, and she was kind of looked down upon because of her cultural beliefs and stuff so then she kind of suppressed those until she was able to come back to Egypt. And so, to her, being Egyptian, wasn’t about what she looked like, it was about architecture, it was about, just, the way that the city… And the fact that the — I forget which emperor it was at that point, Augustus, I guess, because he was there forever — who took in this Nubian captive prince and then was like, “Okay, you’re Roman now.” And everyone’s like, “Okay, he’s Roman now.” And like, and he was like a dark-skinned person and it’s like, “Yeah, he’s Roman.” That was the narrative that kind of showed me like, okay, that this was not, it was about where were you from? What are your cultural beliefs? Not about what’s your skin tone? 

Gina: It’s all about culture, girl, all about culture. And so, that’s the thing. I think that’s where, as society started… I hate to even use the word ‘progress’ because I don’t think society has progressed, but just as the years went on, it stopped being about culture. And I think that happened when more and more people became ballsy and tried to move in to conquer other areas. You know, look at the Norse people, they went and tried to conquer France. They, I mean, they did a whole lot of things. See, I told you, I know a little bit about a lot. [Ann laughs] They went in, and obviously they’re going to bring their culture with them. So, when it comes time for people to rise back up or after being oppressed for a while, cultures probably start to blend. And that’s why you don’t have, you know, places like China and Japan, they have very deep culture that goes back centuries because they weren’t conquered like that; they weren’t forced to assimilate to any other culture. 

I think that’s why culture has stopped being so important to a lot of people, because there’s just been so much intermingling of cultures, how can you really say this, “This specifically is my culture”? I’m a Black American and a mixed-race Black American at that. There are a number of people that are African from whatever country within that continent that would not look at me as having any kind of claim towards African culture because they don’t view me as African in any way. I’m a mixed-race Black American. That’s it. They’re not claiming me. [laughs] So, for me to say, “Oh, it’s culture.” What culture am I claiming? I mean, especially being of mixed race, what culture am I claiming? And I think that happened to a lot of areas when they started getting conquered, culture just kind of faded. 

So, it’s interesting that Selene wanted to hold on to that because the culture is what worked against her mother; the culture is what she would have been basically harassed for growing up; and the culture is also something that she hadn’t been a part of in how many years? Because she was younger when she was taken from Egypt and brought to live with Octavia. So, it was surprising to me when I heard about her erecting some of the architecture that resembled what was in Egypt and whatnot. I mean, kudos to her for trying to hang on to her culture because most people would have been like, “Mmm, let me not do that because that’s not worked well for my family in the past.”

Ann: Well, and that’s the thing with Selene too I talked about it in that episode, I’m just remembering. The woman who wrote, it’s the first-ever biography ever because no one’s ever put all the stuff together. But one of the reasons we don’t know a lot about her is because she kept her head down. Like, she was sent off to this province of Rome and she was just, like… The fact that she’s Cleopatra’s daughter, I’m sure everybody was waiting for her to do something scandalous. 

Gina: Oh yeah. 

Ann: So, the fact that we don’t know anything when she would have been, like, micro-observed constantly just means, like, she learned from her mother. It’s like, “Okay, here’s what I can get away with. Here’s what I can’t get away with.” Which just really shows that it’s the sort of people in history where it’s like, yeah, we don’t know a lot of details, but we know that she was queen of this place for, like, decades and decades so, clearly she was good. She’s good enough that the Romans weren’t like, “Look at this mess Cleopatra, just like her mother,” or whatever. So, that’s so intriguing. 

Gina: And they would have. They would have done that quickly if she tried to rise up in any way. And I remember on your previous podcast, you mentioned Zenobia that she wrecked shop with those Romans and there’s not a whole lot written about her. And we all know how back in the day if something happened in Ancient Egypt and they didn’t like you, they would literally chisel you off the walls. [laughs] So, I mean, like, literally chisel you off a wall. So, I think that’s what happened with Zenobia and probably even Selene is, things that didn’t look favourable for the Roman Empire were destroyed. Because I mean, let’s be honest, it was all written on scrolls and or able to be chiselled away. Yeah, it wasn’t the internet back then where once it’s on the internet, it’s there forever. So, it’s really easy to erase someone or something that they did from history and I think that happened with those two young ladies. 

Ann: That’s where someone like… Why do you think Cleopatra’s story, like, the main Cleopatra who… I was even surprised, I’m like, “Wait, Cleopatra VII? There was other Cleopatras?” Why do you think her story continues and has always been so famous? Is it, like, the Romans couldn’t erase what she did because it was so impactful? Because you think that would be the first name they’d want to chisel out, like, this woman who seduced two of our emperors like race and army against us. Yet we know about her, and we still care about her. Why do you why do you think that is? 

Gina: So, let’s go back in time to the arrogance of men. I read a story once about a very young Caesar. I want to say he was maybe in his twenties at the time. So, he was kind of up and coming in the ranks, where he was captured by some pirates. The entire time that he was captured by them, he tormented them basically, treated them like he had captured them. It was only a matter of time before he got out of there. And of course, you know, they demanded a ransom for him. I remember reading that the ransom that they were going to demand, e was like, “That’s some bullshit. That’s way too low. I’m worth more than that. [Ann laughs] Demand this amount.” And then they sent the people back to Rome to demand the amount that Caesar felt he was actually worth. 

The whole time he was with them, he observed them, he treated them like they were his subordinates, so on and so forth. The ransom was paid, he was released, he went back to Rome, he gathered up an army and a navy, he went back, he captured them. He brought them back to Rome, paraded them around, then crucified them all. This man’s level of arrogance had no limit. He wasn’t even popular at that time. Not too many people even knew who he was yet this is how he was conducting himself. 

So, let’s look at Octavian now. He grew up around that arrogance. He grew up around this man who basically was larger than life in the Roman society. He’s the one that crossed the Rubicon, I mean, you name it, the man had balls the size of God only knows what. He felt that he could get away with anything. Octavian grew up seeing that. Octavian grew up thinking that about himself because he was part of the Julian line, and the Julian line thought that they were straight from the right hand of God. Anyways, so you’ve got two men that are considered to be the end-all, be-all of the ultimate Roman male. And then, of course, you know, you’ve got sexy-ass Mark Antony in there. I would really like to see what he actually looked like. If I go back in time, I want to see if he was really as hot as they thought they were. 

Ann: The way they wrote about him!

Gina: [laughs] But you’ve got all these men that are… They’re in control and they have egos out of this world. Octavian grew up with that. So, you’ve got all these men that are idolized by all the people in Rome that dealt with this one individual woman. How does she not become a big part of what they write about? Because you’ve got all these men that are considered to be the ultimate man’s man dealing with this woman. This woman has to be talked about because even if they thought that she was a witch or she was using potions, whatever it is they thought about her, they deep down still had to respect the fact that there’s something about this woman that cannot be denied. 

And like you said, you also have to include her because she was a huge part of a whole pivot in Roman society. So, you know, there’s the whole point in time where they were withholding the grain so, you know, Rome was basically starving because Cleopatra and Antony were holding back grain shipments. So, just her existence had such a huge impact on the Roman society, there’s no way that she couldn’t be considered important to their overall history. There was just no way to ignore her. You can try to erase whatever you want but this woman was larger in life, whether they wanted to admit it or not. And so, “Fine, we can’t get rid of the bitch. Let’s just write her the way we want her to be,” kind of thing, [chuckles] I think. 

Ann: Yeah. But then what’s funny about that is they’re like this bitch and they’re talking about her. And I think from a pretty early point, people are like, “Oh my god, she sounds amazing.” And they’re like, “No, no, no! No. No. We’re saying she’s terrible. We’re saying she….”

Gina: Yeah, “No, that’s not what we’re saying.” [laughs]

Ann: That’s not how I’m reading this. Like, the stuff that they’re talking about, I’m just like, “That sounds great.” Everything you’re talking about, I’m like, “Good for her.” Yeah, it’s funny that she’s so well-known. Like that’s like… God, I forget who I was talking about. But anyway, just like, the young generation, if you’d say to them the name of, like, any historical person like, nnhh, I don’t know. But if you say Cleopatra, everyone knows Cleopatra. 

Gina: Right. Because I study Nefertiti a lot. And I say the name Nefertiti, either they have no idea who she is, or they only know, “Oh, isn’t that that one statue?” Oh my god, it’s not a statue. It’s a bust. But do you even know where it is? “No.” Okay. So, there are a lot of “popular women,” but she is the one that has stood the test of time. I think that’s just because she is the one that the Romans wrote about the most and I think that she just really gave them no other choice but to write about her. They wrote about her in the way that they wanted to, but they still wrote about her. 

And we all know… I believe back then, the language would have been Coptic in Egypt. Not a whole lot of people knew that language and it is really very scarcely used today. But Latin is what Rome used. We can still speak Latin, we can read Latin so we can read everything, understand everything that they talked about. There might be some hieroglyphs somewhere that talk about Cleopatra because I think I either read or heard something that the Egyptians didn’t really write about her. I think that there probably are some hieroglyphs somewhere, that exist somewhere because they wouldn’t just go and just not write about her at all. I mean, she was Pharaoh. There’s just no way you don’t write about this woman. Either they don’t understand, today’s researchers don’t understand what they’re reading, or they just haven’t found it yet. I do think there is (again, personal theory) I do think there are some writings about her by the Egyptians, or maybe they were all in the library that burned down, which I think was purposely burned down. But that’s again, my theory.

Ann: [chuckles] That sounds like an amazing podcast for another day. [both laugh] But yeah, she’s so famous. She’s so well-known. 

And then the other thing, and I talk about this in the podcast, but I want to get your take on it, too, the whole thing about how the Romans, you know, like they were just being like, “This bitch sucks. She’s so awful. Look at all these amazing things she did.” But also, they never wrote about her being beautiful. But Cleopatra today is remembered as, like, the most beautiful woman ever. What are your thoughts about that whole thing? 

Gina: Going back to Nefertiti, the bust is freaking gorgeous. You don’t have any depiction. So, Cleopatra is showing her being a beauty. I’ve seen some coinage, this had her visage on it, and I’m like, “[soft chuckle] Okay.” [laughs] 

Ann: Yeah. Yeah, without the charisma, you’re just like, “That’s just some face.” 

Gina: Yeah. And so, I think that she was probably just a very average-looking young lady because she was so well-read, you know, she could speak multiple languages, I have no doubt she could write in them as well, she understood politics better than what they thought women should back then, she understood strategy. I would never say that I thought it was her looks that got her where she got to. It was her mind and her charisma like you mentioned. I really, truly believe that she… I won’t say she learned how to play the game, I want to say she created a whole new section of the game. 

Ann: I love that. I love that, yes. 

Gina: And the game… Basically, she was playing chess while everyone else was playing checkers. I think that she was just she was on such an elevated level of intellect that these typical men couldn’t help but fall for it because they’re like, “Oh wait, a woman that poses a challenge? Let me see if I can conquer this,” because that’s the way men are today. They think of a woman, they’re like, “Oh, you’re a challenge.” They think they need to conquer you. Well, you know, when you send them crying with their tails tucked between their legs, they realize you were bigger challenge than they could handle. 

I think the only reason why Cleopatra— Not the only reason, two reasons why Cleopatra didn’t win. Number one, Caesar was killed. Number two, Antony was a punk. [Ann laughs] Because she was smarter than both those men put together. Once she lost Caesar, she backed the wrong Roman. But there really wasn’t any other Romans for her to back because Octavian clearly was not going to be an option for her, and Lepidus, my god, I’m surprised he even made it into the history books [Ann laughs] because that man was just a waste. So, the only other option was Antony. 

I remember you mentioning in your podcast that he probably had some sort of CTE or PTSD, because of all the fighting that he was doing. That is very likely, very, very likely because we all know that the man had mental breakdowns towards the end because he felt his walls closing in and it just… Plus the man was drinking like it was water. So, I think that he had all those kinds of issues going against him as well. And then, you know, he just kept losing battles and Octavian just kept growing his ranks. Yeah, Cleopatra just backed the wrong Roman and that was her ultimate downfall. Antony was her downfall. I won’t say that it was her kids. I won’t say that it was her ambition. The only mistake I think she made— And I wouldn’t even say it was a mistake that she killed her brothers or her sister, I wouldn’t even say that was a mistake. I think the only mistake Cleopatra made was Antony. Bottom line. 

Ann: That’s what’s interesting, too, about I think just in terms of like the average person, not you and me, [chuckles] people who have like a normal amount of knowledge about history, they’re just like, “Oh yeah, Cleopatra. She’s this like famous sexy woman.” Maybe they’ve heard about, like, Cleopatra and Antony is this tragic love story. Like, people remember those two together more than her with Caesar, I think. 

Gina: I think that’s because… See, that’s the thing. When they talk about the history, they kind of talk about it like a TV episode where it’s, like, “This happened. Oh! This happened,” but in actuality, there were five years in between when this happened compared to when this happened, but they don’t get into all the little details because they’ve only got a one-hour episode. [laughs] So, they pick and choose the things that they thought were most important. 

She spent a lot of time with Caesar, but she spent more time with Antony. And I think that combined with the fact that Antony led to her downfall, which is what they all ultimately wanted, was her downfall, is why they talk about him the most. Because Caesar did a lot of debaucherous things, he just did. Most elite Romans did male or female, mostly the males because, you know, manhater. But they’re not going to focus on that with him. They’re going to focus on all the great accomplishments that he did. When it comes to Antony, he became basically an enemy of Rome. Therefore, we’re going to paint him as a sex addict, drinker, heathen, whatever, and that’s all because of her because they were so intertwined with one another. I think that’s why they talk about that “love story” more than they do the time she spent with Caesar, because Caesar really even after death was still analyzed, whereas Antony, he just kept going down on the famous meter. 

Ann: No, you’re right. And it’s really just sort of making him, like, the scapegoat in that way. It’s just like, “Cleopatra was there. We have to talk about her.” But if you kind of tie those two together, then it’s like, “Oh, these two people…” Yeah. And you’re right because Julius Caesar is still remembered as this famous… I think to normal people, he’s still a name that you might have heard of, Julius Caesar. Whereas Mark Antony is only ever really talked about in context of Antony and Cleopatra, like, that’s his whole thing. 

Gina: Even though he was a great general. I mean, he started falling off at the end. But you had to do good to get to the point that he did in the first place because the Roman army was huge. There were a lot of sergeants and generals and whomever, but he stood out above the rest. So, he had to be good at what he did to get to the rank that he did. But the only way you can bring someone like that down, in their minds, is to tie him to a woman and tie him to a woman that they didn’t agree with how she acted. That’s just how the patriarchy works. 

Ann: It’s all so contemporary. [chuckles]

Gina: Hey, you know, the thing is, it’s that old saying, “There’s nothing new under the sun.” And I say this to people a lot and they’re kind of like, “Oh my god, here she goes again on one of her history tangents.” But if you really look at our society and Ancient Roman society, there are so many exacts and similarities. We are technically a democracy, [chuckles] we have a Senate, we have, technically, the checks and balances of how things are supposed to operate within our government. It was the same in Ancient Rome. You look at a lot of the federal buildings that were built years ago and you’ve got those columns that they had in Ancient Roman architecture. And I don’t know if they’re still doing it or not, but it was a trend on social media over the summer where men think about Ancient Rome a lot. 

Ann: Yup! Yeah, yeah. 

Gina: [chuckles] Well, they think about Ancient Rome a lot because they really consider that to be one of the heights of their glory, of their control, of their assholery, I guess you’d say. So, you know, that’s why they look at Caesar the way they do is because he had so many he had so many triumphs in conquests. And when I say triumphs, I actually mean parading down the street triumphs, [chuckles] with his little parades. But I think that our society really looks at the Ancient Roman society as one of the ultimate elites. And, you know, generals in World War II were looking at strategies from Caesar. You know, they probably still do throw that in the computer, run the simulation based on what Caesar did, how can we make that work in our time? 

So, he’s just always going to be revered. No matter how much of a dick he was, he’s always going to be revered. And to a certain point, I think that he deserves that. I hate to say that because, you know, manhater, but he was pretty amazing. And his ego, I think, led to his ultimate downfall. I think if he had been a little bit more humble about some of the things he did, they wouldn’t have turned him into a pincushion. But, you know, he did what he did and the guys club thought that he was stepping all over their egos so, you know, “We got to take care of this.” Octavian went out, hunted them down, because, you know, that was what the Julian ego was supposed to do. You’ve got to avenge your family. You’ve got to avenge what you feel is yours. So, he went out, hunted all these guys down, along with Antony. 

But I don’t think there’s ever a time that’s going to come that Caesar is not going to be considered to be the ultimate. I don’t see it happening. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a time where Antony is given any kind of respect for the type of general that he was. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a time where Cleopatra is ever going to be given the respect she is just due, period. I don’t see any of those three things happening. 

Ann: No. The narratives are so established. But just what you were saying, it’s just really making me think like, yeah, you know, Julius Caesar was assassinated. Like, the Roman Empire did fall, it failed. But people only look at the glory of it and then Cleopatra has always looked at like, “Oh yeah, but then eventually she failed and then she killed herself.” It’s like, but she did so much stuff before that. So, we only look at her downfall and Ancient Rome, it’s like, blinkers on. We’re only looking at when it was good, allegedly. 

Gina: And they, man, I mean, the barbarians sacked Rome, what was it? Two times? Three times? 

Ann: At least, yeah. 

Gina: And so, it’s like, Rome was mighty, but they weren’t perfect. They overextended themselves because… ego. And they couldn’t protect the provinces that they had, they couldn’t protect Rome. And they started pissing off a whole lot of people they considered to be beneath them. I mean, we would say it today, if the little people just banded together, you can oust the big people. That’s what they did back then. They got tired of Rome; they ousted them. Bottom line. Look what happened in Britain. [laughs]

Ann: Exactly. But we never, like I say “we,” I just mean culturally, societally. We’re like, “Julius Caesar was so smart, and he was so great.” It’s like, he was murdered by his best friends. 

Gina: He was. And that’s the thing that just gets me because how jealous, or how spiteful, or how whatever do you have to be to knife down someone you called friend for years? Someone that protected your city? I mean, he went out on campaigns, too. He was out there fighting, too. He didn’t he wasn’t sitting up on some throne somewhere dictating to other people how they were supposed to fight. He was on the battlefield! He might not have always been out there with his sword, but he was there. He did all of that for Rome and then they turned around and killed him on the Senate floor. I mean, that’s the most disrespectful thing you could possibly do to a man that had really… I mean, yeah, he was a jerk, but he had given his life for Rome. He had and they turn around and they do that to him and call him this, that, and the other. Well, hmm. We see how that worked out for you. [chuckles]

Ann: And this is the thing. It’s like even just going through like the story of Cleopatra, there’s so many… What happened to Julius Caesar is such a part of her story, and what happened to Mark Antony is so much of her story. And just, like, what her sisters did, her sisters were all trying to take over, too. It’s just like… It was such a dangerous situation for everyone to be in. I think I said, it was in my notes, I probably said in the podcast, it’s like, you’re not being paranoid. If you’re not being paranoid, then you’re going to be the one who’s murdered next because everyone is murdering everyone. And the fact that she lasted as long as she did and that she thrived for quite a while…

Gina: She made it to almost 40 years old. Number one, that’s a feat in and of itself because people didn’t live that long back then. 

Ann: Especially having babies! Women were dying in childbirth every day. And she had three! 

Gina: She had four kids! 

Ann: Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah, I always forget about Philadelphus. 

Gina: Yeah. He was just there, poor little guy. She just… and you know, it was funny because I never thought about this until I watched the documentary on Netflix. The eunuchs, the advisors; think about their names, they were Macedonian Greek names. These were people that were deeply rooted into basically “Fuck Egyptians, we’re here, we’re in charge.” And I think the reason why they were always advising brothers and sisters to go against Cleopatra is because she embraced the Egyptian culture. 

Ann: Right. She’s the only one who learned the language. 

Gina: Yeah, I’m pretty sure she went out in the streets pretty often, too, just to see how things were with people and that was shown in the documentary. And I actually thought about that before I saw it in the documentary. But I’m like, you know what? I’m glad you put that in there because I really do believe that she actually went out amongst the people because when we’ve talked about this before, the common people wouldn’t know what the royal family looked like because we had no internet, we had no photos, we didn’t have cell phones. So, they wouldn’t know it was her. As long as she was dressed like them, they wouldn’t know it was her walking the streets and I think she did that quite often just to be more immersed in it, to try to understand them better. So, I think that the advisors did not like that about her, which is why they were always in the ear of her siblings saying, “You got to rise up against her because she’s going to go against what we’re trying to do here.” 

Ann: That’s probably part of where this conspiracy or suspicion that she was maybe part Egyptian, that she had some Egyptian blood in her. It’s like, why else would she be interested in the Egyptian people and learn the language? Like, maybe she learned that from her mother. But it’s like, also maybe she was just a person who, like, culturally, she was Macedonian, but she just gave a shit, that’s all.

Gina: She was inquisitive. I’d say that she wanted— She’s one of those people because you know how we are about history, we want to know as much as we can, but our poor little brains can only handle so much. But I think she was the same way. She wanted to know! She just wanted to know so she went out and she learned. I think that that’s why she was so interesting to Caesar and Antony is because she wanted to understand the world around her. And even though they didn’t realize the world was as big as it was, it was still big to them. And for this woman to want to know about the world around her and to know as much as she actually did, there’s no way they wouldn’t fall for that. No way. Because if I run into someone that likes to talk about history the way I do, you’re going to know me for the rest of your damn life. I’m not letting go of you. [laughs]

Ann: This is the thing. This is why and how we became friends and this is why we’re still friends. It’s just like, “Oh! Oh, you’re like me.” [laughs]

Gina: And I think that that was that was the intrigue for them. I don’t think that… You mentioned this in your previous podcast, that she probably wasn’t very well-versed in in the sexual part of being a woman because she probably just wasn’t exposed to it as much. I don’t think it was overly important to her as much as it was learning. So, I wouldn’t say that… I mean, she was more experienced by the time Antony came along but I don’t think that that was it with Caesar. I don’t think she was experienced enough to try to use her femininity against him. I just really think that she realized “This is a man who likes strategy, he likes intelligence. Let me let me show him what I’m all about.” And you get to having a conversation, you know, you and I are probably going to be on this podcast for the next five hours. You know, you find someone that you could have an intelligent conversation with, you’re not going to let that go. And he, I think, was just enthralled with the knowledge the young lady had and he didn’t want to let it go. 

Antony probably thought she was pretty. I mean, I’ve seen some of the drawings or whatever you want to have of some of the Roman women. So, she probably did look better than some of the ladies he had to choose from back home, [Ann laughs] but I think he was intrigued by her intelligence only to a certain extent. I think he was just a horny little asshole and just wanted in her pants, or her dress, whatever it was she wore then. 

Ann: Her toga.

Gina: Yes, toga.

Ann: But yeah, but that’s what’s so… I remember from when I was putting together that podcast in the first place and just thinking about Cleopatra again, it’s just like, it’s just so frustrating to me that she was so smart and so clever and so capable. And society is like, “She was sexy!” [Gina chuckles] Maybe she was. But also, you know, like sometimes you see pictures of people from like the Victorian era, like photographs of people. And you’re like, “That was the most gorgeous courtesan in France? Her??” But it’s intangible sometimes. Like, somebody could just look like the most plain person, but their personality just elevates it to a point where you’re just like, “Oh my gosh, I’m dazzled,” and I think Cleopatra had that for sure. Like, I think she’s such a… I think when someone is curious, that is so appealing to everybody; someone who can have a conversation. Like you hear about… I don’t know who… Some of the celebrities. I was at a Comic Con, I met Jeff Goldblum. I paid for the, like, picture and I was just like, “Oh my god!” Like, emanating from him. He was like, “Hi, how are you? I like your glasses.” I was like…

Gina: Melt! [laughs] 

Ann: Just like that level. And I’m sure lots of celebrities or politicians have that power. And I feel like if you when you if you’re someone like that, if you’re Mark Antony or Julius Caesar, someone, you know, you have that effect on other people, then you meet someone who has that effect on you, then I think you’re just like, “Oh! This is rare. This is unusual.” 

Gina: Yeah, I went to one of those conventions with my sons before I left Minnesota and I got to meet Nichelle Nichols, [Ann gasps] who was obviously, I just, I was a huge fan. She is just an idol to me. And I sat down next to her and she was like, “So, what are we doing today?” I said, “I just want to have a I just want to be in a picture with you. That’s all I want.” And she looked at me. She said, “What’s your name?” I said, “Gina,” And I’m like, oh my god, she’s talking to me. And I said, “Gina,” and she goes, “You are really beautiful, Gina.” I almost cried. I almost cried. 

Ann: I would! Oh my gosh.

Gina: She’s like, “Come on, let’s take our picture.” I was like, “Yes, please!” So, I get it. I get that when you meet someone that you view in such high regard that they— I mean, obviously, she was beautiful but even if by society’s standards, she wasn’t, I still would have been, like, on the verge of tears, because this woman just, she was just it for me, you know. And so, I get what you’re saying about how, you know, it didn’t necessarily have to be about her looks on why everyone was just like, “Wow,” because she probably just emanated this, “You’re lucky to be around me” kind of vibe. And then if she started speaking and it was considered to be intelligent and well-informed, how do you not gravitate towards that? How do you not want to sit and just listen? You know? I would have loved… Granted, there was a line so I couldn’t sit and talk to Miss Nichols for very long but if I could have just sat and just talked to her, I would have been there for hours just picking her brain on everything, you know? 

Ann: Well, now I’m thinking too, and you know more about this than I do, but Roman society, women were not that highly educated in general, right? Like, they were taught to run the household. So, to Julie Caesar and Mark Antony, it would be rare to meet a woman who is scholarly or who is educated. So, that would just be unique in itself.

Gina: And still running the house. [laughs] She was still running the house too. Yeah, I just think that based on how they thought of themselves and based on how she presented herself to them, they didn’t stand a chance. I also think that because of how the general male populace thought of themselves, and how she presented herself, that’s what made them dislike her the most. Because I wouldn’t say they weren’t smart, I would just say that they clearly were on a different level than Caesar and Antony, because they weren’t in charge, Caesar and Antony were. They were just kind of like the background singers. So, sorry [laughs] I always go back to music with everything for some reason. 

Ann: No, I love, I love, I love picturing them in their togas just, like, as the background. 

Gina: Right? Just swaying back and forth. 

Ann: That’s literally it.

Gina: [laughs] They are! So, they consider themselves to be highly intelligent men because they were part of the Senate, and they were writing poetry, and they were writing soliloquies, and they were doing this and that and the other, and they had villas here, there, and everywhere. And this bitch little girl coming in here, talking about all this stuff that she shouldn’t know anything about, trying to act like she’s better than us, trying to act like she’s smarter than us. Well, she probably was, they’re automatically not going to like her because they aren’t in a position of, basically, ultimate power like Caesar was. Caesar didn’t feel like he had an equal. He didn’t feel like he had a rival, really. He didn’t really view them as rivals, he viewed them as his subordinates. 

So, if he meets someone that (male or female, didn’t matter) he felt was more of an equal, he’s going to want that in his life. That’s men. That’s just always been men. That’s always going to be men because some point in history, it was thought that men really should be held at a higher level than women. And that has just continued through history and morphed and gotten bastardized somehow to the point to where we’re supposed to be subordinate. We broke out of that a little bit for a little while with the feminist movement, but it looks like they’re trying to shove us right back down in there. I’m going to be the first one to say, “Don’t make me take it to the streets, because I submit to no one,” ask my parents. [both laugh] But I really do believe, ultimately, she failed because she was great. The men couldn’t allow that. 

Ann: Yeah, I think the world… The men couldn’t allow that. I think the world just wasn’t ready for her. 

Gina: They weren’t. They weren’t ready for a lot of women in history because there were a number or there was like a handful, I’d say, of Egyptian queens that did so much better than their male counterparts when it came to the decisions they made for the overall country, and we’ll get into that on another podcast. But it’s been like that with almost every culture throughout all of history where when a woman really truly shows that she knows her shit and she’s handling business, men get butthurt and they think they need to destroy that. Regardless of the fact that it’s actually helping them, what these women are doing, their egos cannot let them accept that this woman is doing better than a man would have done, and they’ve got to destroy it. 

Ann: I’m always looking at, you and I both, are always looking at, like, quotes and things. And I know that because everything you post on your Instagram story, I’m like, “Yes, yes, I feel the same.” [Gina laughs] But I saw something that somebody was saying somewhere about, like, traditionally, if biologically, if men were supposed to be in control of everything instead of women, then why would they keep having to make laws and rules and stopping women from doing stuff? It’s like, that’s clearly not nature if you have to, like, create laws and shame women to stop doing things. So, why would women be doing them if it’s not…? So, the whole thing, it’s like, “Oh, this is natural. It’s like the hunter-gatherer or whatever.” It’s like, no! If it was then we wouldn’t need laws. 

Gina: Yeah, I mean, I’m a single mom. I raised two boys. Well, they’d hate it if I call them boys because they’re grown-ass men, you know how they are. But I never had any problems out of them and they’re very strong-willed young men. 

Ann: I can imagine your sons would be. 

Gina: [laughs] But, you know, there was never getting in trouble at school. There was there has never been trouble, anything with the law. Nothing. They’re law-abiding, productive members of society. I’m a single mom. I did that. I didn’t need a man to help me teach them how to be a productive member of society. To say that it’s natural for a man to— I’m not saying that it’s not good to have a two-parent home, because obviously, I would have liked that, that just didn’t quite work out between me and my ex-husband. But to say that a woman can’t do something, to say a woman couldn’t go out there and shoot her own buffalo and skin it up and cook it for the family, to say a woman can’t do something that it’s the man’s place, it’s the man’s whatever to be doing this, that’s idiotic. 

Because even, you know, put divorce aside, women that lose that tragically lose their husbands, they’ve had to do it on their own. And this has been throughout all of history where a woman is going to have to do it on her own. Granted, most of the time they didn’t want to because of the way society is set up saying that a woman can’t do it by herself, she’s got to have a man to do it. But the thought process that men have, that they need to be in charge of everything, they need to be taking care of everything, women have proved time and time again, “We don’t need you. We can do it our damn selves.” But they just so… They’re holding on to that one for dear life. [both laugh] And I don’t think they’re ever going to give that one up. 

Ann: It’s the sort of thing, like, you can see in some people just, like, celebrities or whatever, politicians, or just people, dumbasses on the internet who are just saying something where I’m just like, oh, they have a core belief. Like, if that’s their core belief that men are so important then they could never change their mind about anything that challenges that core belief because then the whole house of cards comes down and then what do they have? Where it’s, like, you can tell that someone thinking something is so vital to their entire being where it’s like, [Gina laughs] you’re never going to change this person’s mind because… You know, when people are like, “Oh well, if you call…” whatever, it’s like, “Well, if that’s sexual harassment, then I’ve been harassing women every day of my life,” and it’s like…

Gina: Probably.

Ann: Maybe you have been, but they could never accept that, you know, because that means recontextualizing…

Gina: That means they were wrong.

Ann: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that’s what it often is. It’s just that, yeah, people who just can’t be wrong. 

Gina: I think that that’s a lot of what happened with Caesar and Antony, where there might have been… Obviously, they respected, to a certain extent, her intelligence. But I think there were some decisions that she made and how it ultimately made them look within Roman society where they were like, “Oh shit. Maybe I was wrong for sticking up for her like that.” Just like, Caesar never publicly claimed Caesarean. I have no doubt that he actually liked the little boy because if he didn’t, he would have had him killed regardless of whatever power that Cleopatra had. So, I think he liked the little boy. He never claimed him because he realized that that would have made him look even worse within Roman society and it’s all about appearances. In every big society, it’s always about appearances. You know, look at what Ancient Egyptians did, they built all those big, huge temples and look at their tombs. They’re huge underground tombs with vast amount of gold and jewellery and stuff in there. It’s all about appearances. 

So, a lot of times I think that they, Antony and Caesar might have regretted some of the things they did or they didn’t regret the things they did. But I think some of their actions really revolved around, “I can’t look like a punk to society because then I’m going to…” Well, I mean, ultimately they viewed Caesar as a punk and they took him out. But he tried to hold on to that as long as he could. And so, he spread himself thin on who he was trying to keep happy. He was trying to keep Cleopatra happy to a certain extent, but he was trying to keep all of Roman society happy above and beyond everything because he was in charge of Rome and that was what was most important to him. Cleopatra was important to him but ultimately, this is all about Rome. “I’m a Roman. I’m the head of Rome first and foremost.” 

So, he had to keep up the appearances and keep them happy, which is why if he had let her in, I think, (this is another theory of mine), if he had led her in, given her a little bit more power, claimed Caesarean, got the Egyptians as a whole kind of on his side, I don’t think they would have got him on the Senate floor. I mean, we’ve all heard the story that the reason why they were even able to get to him is because Antony was called away at the last second because they knew that he would fight for him. They all knew that. So, they had to get Antony away so they could take Caesar out. I truly believe that if he had elevated everything the way he probably should have, she would have had some of her personal guards there, always looking out for him, and that would have protected him. 

Ann: I love that as a theory. 

Gina: [laughs] Obviously, it’s just a theory. 

Ann: No, but it’s like, I think that could be a good basis for some sort of like, I don’t know, book or movie or something. You know, people are always like, “Imagine… What if this side won the war?” It’s like, well, imagine, what if this had happened? If Caesar hadn’t been killed, what would have happened to the Roman Empire? Like, because then Octavian doesn’t come in necessarily, at that point. 

Gina: You don’t have the golden age of his reign. 

Ann: Does America still model themselves after the Roman Empire? Or is it… I don’t know.

Gina: Honestly, I think that Octavian wouldn’t even been who he was if it wasn’t for his, for two of his wives. So, he was married once, I don’t even remember her name. I don’t know where she went. But then he married someone called Scribonia, I think was her name. Don’t really hear much about her because she was a proper Roman wife and didn’t ruffle the favours. But then after Caesar was killed and a lot of the elite that were remaining, they had to pick a side. They had to pick, you know, who they wanted to back and if you picked the wrong person, you were going to be killed. That’s just the way it was. That’s when Livia came into play. 

Livia, she was the daughter of a very high-ranking socialite male in an Ancient Rome, very wealthy family. He picked the wrong side to back after Caesar was killed and he was killed for his riches because that’s what they did; they went around and killed everyone that didn’t go along with what they wanted, and they stole everything that they had. Livia was livid because her family’s riches were taken. Her current husband, who she had like a couple of kids with, I want to say, was a dork [Ann laughs] and was never going to help her aspire to what she really wanted to be in life. She set her sights on Octavian, who was also married to Scribonia at the time. 

Ann: This didn’t stop anyone in Ancient Rome. It was never an issue. 

Gina: But she, from what I understand, was the one that really, truly pushed him to go after Antony. And so, I’m not saying that Octavian wasn’t a pompous ass, but I think that her in his ear, basically telling him, “If you don’t do this, you’re a punk,” he probably took chances that he probably would not have taken if it wasn’t for her pushing him to do it. And from what I understand, he actually liked her because if he didn’t, he would have got rid of her too. She was around until she passed, I believe. But I really think that even though men want to say that they’re this, they’re that, the other, I don’t think that half of them would have done what they did in their lives if it wasn’t for a strong woman in their ear, pushing them to do these things. 

Ann: Well, this is just reminding me of the Nefertiti discussion, too. 

Gina: Mm-hm. I am not saying that Akhenaten didn’t want to do some of the things he did, but he might have been sort of iffy on doing them until she got in his ear and was like, “Look, I didn’t marry a bitch, so you better get out there and handle your business.” [Ann laughs] Because no woman wanted to be married to a bitch. 

So, I honestly believe that Livia is the backbone of Octavian’s audacity and some of the things that he was really willing to do because, you know, he went around gathering all the people that were supposed to be supporters of Egypt. He went around gathering them to his side because he knew that even though Rome had a really good army, a very disciplined army, he was going to need more. So, he took away what she had, put it on his side, and used that to be able to conquer her. And see, I won’t say that he was necessarily trying to be shady, I mean, that’s just the nature of the game. You got to do what you got to do to win. But if he didn’t do that, I’m not sure he would have won, you know? If those different… I don’t necessarily want to say they were provinces, they’re just allies of Egypt. If they remained allies of Egypt, our history would look a lot different. 

Ann: It was a lot of… Like, just between Octavian, but also to Caesar, Mark Antony, Cleopatra, it was a lot of people who were playing at a really high level of strategy, and that’s kind of satisfying in a way to read about because sometimes just one side just decimates the other side and you’re like, “Well, that wasn’t very interesting.” But this is, like, it really could have gone in any which way. 

Gina: It could. One wrong move on the victors’ side and we could be having a completely different conversation right now. And that’s the thing, I’m not taking away from anyone’s intelligence as far as those three main players go, because they were all clearly highly intelligent and very good strategists but I do believe that to a certain extent, their advisors deserve some of the credit because no one person is going to think of everything. That’s just not human nature. I’m not going to think of everything to talk about in a podcast that you might think to talk about. I really believe that the advisors should have… They should have had a good retirement, because I think that even if they didn’t give a very specific, “You need to do this,” they would have said something that would have made it click in Caesar’s head, or an Octavian’s head, or someone’s head, “Oh wait, maybe I should do this.” So, I really truly believe that, you know, with the exception of the conniving eunuchs that were around, [Ann chuckles] I think I think the advisors actually deserve some of the credit on these victories. 

Ann: Definitely. You know what? It’s the same as, like, right now, there’s the Academy Awards or whatever and everyone’s out there campaigning, but you know that they have their teams behind them; they’re deciding what outfits they’re going to wear on the red carpet, they’re deciding what stories are they going to tell in their interviews. It’s, like, the person gets the Academy Award but there’s a whole team of people strategizing. That’s my ridiculous comparison to Ancient Roman warfare. But it’s the same. It’s, like, nowhere in history has there been one person who does this all themselves. You have to throw ideas back and forth with somebody. You don’t just figure this out in your head. And it’s often these unsung advisors or like Livia, you know, your wife in the background or whoever. Yeah. 

Gina: Or, you know, it’s funny because there have been times where I’d be talking with my younger son (and I call him younger, even though he’s 23) and we’ll be talking about whatever and he’ll say something, and I’m like, “Damn. I never even thought about it that way.” And you’re thinking “I’m so much older than you. I know so much more than you,” but a different perspective. You know, he’s that Gen Z that doesn’t give a damn about anything. So, it’s just always going to be like, “This is what I think, screw all the rest to you.” I try to be a little bit more diplomatic about the things I do but might not always come out that way. But he has made me view things in totally different ways at times. I’m like, “Damn, my brain is just not wired like that.” 

So, I think (it’s been portrayed like this, and I can actually see it happening), is Cleopatra really did consider herself the reincarnation of Isis; she considered herself to be the end-all, be-all when it came to making decisions. You know, if you didn’t like what she said, “Off with your head,” kind of thing. So, I really believe that in the end, people might have been trying to advise her about things, but she was so stuck on, “I know what the fuck I’m doing. Get away from me,” that she might have made some bad decisions here and there that could have helped her. 

We don’t know everything that happened in the background. We only know, like, the Battle of Actium and all that kind of stuff, we know the big stuff that happened. We don’t know all the small stuff that built up some of these big occurrences. So, she could have possibly made some smaller bad decisions that led up to the downfall and some of these bigger things that we know about because I think, I’m not saying she was as arrogant as maybe Caesar or Antony, but she really did consider herself to be above the people that were around her. She might have made some bad decisions.

Ann: Well, and like you said, you know, she created a new, whatever you said, it was so smart. Like, playing the game, she created a new game or whatever. 

Gina: She created the game she was playing and no one else understood the rules of that game. 

Ann: That’s the thing! So, who could advise her? 

Gina: That’s true. 

Ann: When no one else is playing at that level. Yeah. 

Gina: That is definitely true. But from everything that I’ve read and seen, she did hold her two ladies in high regard. So, I think that if they would have… The two ladies that she committed suicide with, her two aides, I do believe that she would have listened to what they said faster than she would someone else. In her younger years, I’m sure she listened to pretty much everything that her advisors told her because as a young person, you should realize you don’t know everything. You’ve got to learn from these older folks that have been there and done that. So, I think she did take under consideration a lot of what she was told in her younger years but by the time she got to the Antony portion of her life, I think that she was just like, “No, I got this one. But thanks anyways.” 

Ann: No, exactly. Like, she’s been through enough, I could see why she would have that confidence. But also, it’s like, there’s no book, there’s no guidebook. She’s doing something that no one’s ever done before. So, all she could do is just be like… Her instincts have helped her this far so just keep going with her instincts, I guess. 

Gina: And one thing that people don’t really ever talk about, because they’re they aren’t talked about a lot in the writings, but not only was she trying to protect her country and her standing, she’s trying to protect her kids. As a parent, I can understand how you would take your kids into consideration on some of the decisions that you make. She did send them away at one point but, to my knowledge, they were pretty much always there in the palace. So, she would always have that reminder of “I’ve got to take care of my kids. I’ve got to try to keep my position for my kids because my kids deserve to inherit that after I’m gone.” That was just the mindset of everyone that was in power back then. You’ve got to you got to make sure your heirs are taken care of. And so, yeah, she might have been the baddest bitch, but she was still a woman, and women are going to view their kids differently than men, most of the time, and they’re going to be a little bit softer about how they view them, and what they do for them. I think that her kids might have played a part in some of the decisions she made as well. 

Ann: I think they must have. Also, way back at the beginning of his conversation, we were talking about culture and stuff, and her kids were half Egyptian, half Roman. So, the fact that she’s, like, Queen of Egypt going in war against Rome, also to her, she’s like, “Well, what does this mean for my children? Are they going to be safe after this if I win? Are they going to be safe if they win? Where are they going to live?” And because it’s like, her son is the son of Caesar. Like, what’s going to happen to him? 

Gina: Yeah. But like I said, had Caesar just done what he should have done in the first place, that conversation would be going differently. So, she… Obviously, we don’t know. But just speaking as a parent, I know that I have made some decisions that might not necessarily have helped me on what I thought I wanted at the time, but it was more for them. Ultimately, it was the right decision in the end. But I just think that a lot of her actions towards the end might have been skewed a bit by what you just said on, you know, does anyone really win in this situation, you know? Because they’re from both places. 

It was too much for one young lady to have to deal with, I think, because she was juggling a lot of balls. You know, you’re literally in charge of an entire country. How do you handle that? I mean, how does that not, at some point, feel overwhelming? Where you are responsible for an entire country? However many people were in that country, you’re in charge of an entire country. You are responsible for your children. You are responsible for your household. She had so much responsibility and really no support, ever. 

Ann: The opposite! Everyone was trying to murder her all the time. 

Gina: Exactly! So, she really had no one in her corner. And so, you know, even though I know she would have put on a brave face when she was out in public, and she would have put her foot down on who’s in charge, that woman had to be in a corner breaking down here and there because there’s going to come a point where it’s just going to be too much. It just is. I’m not in charge of a country. I’m in charge of my one little house with my regular little kids, that’s it. And sometimes it feels overwhelming for me. So, how is it not overwhelming at a young age to be in charge of so much? That’s going to make you make a bad decision at some point, too. 

Ann: And everything, all the decisions she was making at a very young age were all literal, like, do or die. I’m sure it’s challenging to be in charge of a country, full stop, in general, but a country that’s, like, at war. A country that is at war and everything is chaos? 

Gina: And see, that’s probably where she probably could have built up some, you know, phantom support with the Roman women had she not been so far outside of what their society told them women were supposed to be. Now, I know there had to have been a fair amount of women in Rome that were like, “Good for her! Stick it to the patriarchy.” But for the most part, you have all these snooty-ass rich women, like, “She’s just not acting like a proper woman. So, whatever happens to her, she deserves,” and they’re going to be saying that to their husbands who are part of Senate who are making the decisions on what shouldn’t be happening within the Roman society. So, you got that whole snowball effect going on there that if she just would have been a proper woman and stayed in her place, none of this would be happening. A lot of people had that thought, men and women. They were probably even teaching it to their kids because you’re going to be raised to do what society tells you you’re supposed to do. 

So, I think that just because she was just such a strong woman, she just didn’t have the amount of support she could have had if she had a husband that was in charge, making the decisions. Then they would have been like, “Oh, she’s just the poor woman that has to follow along with what her husband’s saying. I support her because she’s going through a lot.” She was the one making the decisions, so the other women were like, “Well, fuck that bitch because she’s stepping out of the line. She needs to get herself figured out and stop trying to come after our men.” So, I just think she lost a lot of support because, we’ve talked about before, she was just going against societal norms. 

Ann: Well, that’s the same thing, like, what I was saying a minute ago. But just if somebody has this ingrained belief and if you start questioning that about yourself, then like, what do you believe in? And these women were raised to think, like, the goal for a woman is your name is written down twice; when you’re born and when you die. [Gina chuckles] Like, you don’t want you don’t want anyone to talk about you ever, they’re like, that is a woman’s role. And then Cleopatra comes in and it’s like, wait, if she gets away with this, then that means everything that they’ve ever believed or been taught is a lie. And then what does that mean? And then that, like, challenges all of society. So, it’s like, if she got away with this then Rome and what women did in Rome, if they’re like, “She got away with this? So, then why do we have to follow different rules?” 

Gina: Yeah. And the level of opulence that she always had around her, what she travelled in, I know you mentioned about the purple sails on her boat.

Ann: And her, like, silver oars. Yeah.

Gina: And, you know, the funny thing is since I can remember, my favourite colour has always been purple. And not just any shade of purple, it has to be the deep, royal purple. That is me. Anyone that truly knows me knows that if you’re going to get me something, get it in purple, because I mean, you should see my office right now. My mouse is purple, my mouse pad is purple, my desk pad is purple, my phone stand, everything is purple. My phone case, purple. Everything is purple. And so, I was like, “Oh my god, that’s how you travel. You have big ass purple sails on your boat!” She was… Romans liked splendour. They did. They had excess of everything, you know, wine, food, jewellery, they had all of that. She had so much more. That’s going to make those Roman women jealous as hell! Because she had even more than the men had. She had more than Rome had, basically. And so, to always be in their eyes, flaunting that, that’s going to get you a lot of hate. She gets mad respect from me because I will float in your boat any time with those purple-ass sails. [laughs]

Ann: That was… That moment. She had, like… Her entrances, the drama. That thing when she had that big parade declaring herself and Mark Antony, like, “We’re gods and our children are also gods.” I love that just like the audacity, it’s more than that. It’s just, like, the glamour and the drama. And she’s just like, “Fuck you, I’m Cleopatra.” And like, I love that energy. 

Gina: But that’s the major sign of a monarchy, really. I mean, you go back in time, in all of Egypt and it was always about showing how much you had. You look at the royal family today, rolling around in a gold carriage, it’s about showing what you stole from people nowadays. But back then, it was what you had, it was what you mined out of your whatever, and you had that built for you to show “I have this.” And so, she just had that mindset. She had that mindset of “I need to always show people how much of a big baller I am,” and she was, you know? She had all of that. If she didn’t have as much as she did, Octavian would not have given a rat’s ass about her. But she had what he wanted; she had riches, she had crops. He wanted those things so that’s why he paid attention to her. If it was any other person, Mark Antony ran off to be with this woman. He’d be like, “Fuck you, go. I got Rome. Deuces.” But she had what he wanted. And because she was a lowly female, he felt he needed to go and take it from her. 

Ann: Okay, we’re going to get into the scoring/reparations section of this podcast. So, there’s four categories. I should have sent those to you before, but I didn’t. But we’re good. They’re all out of 10. And so, the first category is Scandaliciousness, the scandal. How did people of her era view her? Did they see her as a scandalous person? But also, did she do anything that was especially scandalous? 

Gina: Honestly, I don’t think she would rank super high on that because I think that she just acted the way it was expected for someone in her position to act. 

Ann: I think in Egypt, it’s kind of like, “Yeah, that’s what a pharaoh does.” I think in Rome, they’re all like, “What?! A woman is talking?”

Gina: I don’t think… She didn’t ever feel like she was doing something outside of what was her right, you know? And I don’t think that, I mean, with the exception of the Egyptians not liking her because she was part of the family that came and conquered them, overall, I don’t think they really saw anything wrong with anything that she was ever doing within the family. No one really ever viewed anything wrong with what she was doing because they would just naturally killed each other. 

Ann: They were all killing each other anyway. It’s like, “Oh, you just killed your sister? Well, your sister killed your other sister.” Like, that’s not scandalous to them. So, it’s a weird… Yeah, it’s weird to think about. 

Gina: On the Egypt side, she wasn’t scandalous at all, she was just going about her daily business. On the Roman side. They would probably rank her at, like, between an 8 and a 10. They would think that she was just… that was not right. 

Ann: We could average that out and do like a 5, maybe. Does that make sense? 

Gina: I keep seeing cat tail. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah, my cat, she’s excited about the scoring. [both laugh] I’ve got this new, like, you can’t see it. I have this microphone stand, so it’s elevated so she can just, like, walk back and forth now, which thank god, because I used to just have my microphone on a pile of books and she would try to walk back and forth and topple over all the books. So, she likes to be involved. Yeah. Are you okay with a 5 for Scandaliciousness? 

Gina: Yes, because I don’t think that she was. It was just day-to-day business for her. 

Ann: Yeah, which is so funny. But also, that’s why I like to judge it based on the culture that she’s in. And in Egypt, they’re just like, “Oh yeah, she married her brother, she killed her sister. It’s just another Tuesday in Ancient Egypt.” 

Gina: But you also have to understand that how many of the actual, just, regular Egyptian people even knew any of that was happening? 

Ann: Oh, that’s true. None of them would, none of them would. Yeah, they’re just busy, like, farming and whatever. 

Gina: And just trying to survive, just trying to keep their own kids alive. They don’t give a damn about what’s happening in that palace. I guarantee you, 90% of the overall society in Egypt had no clue any of those people really existed. They knew there was a pharaoh, but that was it. 

Ann: All they know, they know that he’s called Ptolemy, but it’s like, [Gina laughs] “For the last 300 years, there’s been a pharaoh called Ptolemy. Has it been the same guy? I don’t know.” 

Gina: “Who cares?” 

Ann: But versus, yeah, I think Rome was just like, “Oh my God, it’s a woman! She’s educated and has thoughts.” Anyway, so I think a 5, just to balance it out. She’s shocking in one place and not in the other place. 

Gina: I agree. 

Ann: Okay. The next category is the Schemieness and I think she’s going to score high here because like she’s always… The schemieness you need to thrive and not be murdered in her family. 

Gina: Exactly. I… You know what? I honestly, honestly, if she wasn’t as scheming as she was, we wouldn’t know she had even existed in history at all. She wouldn’t have gotten to where she was. I’ve got to give her a 9 on that, honestly. I would honestly give her sister a 10 because her sister seems like she was quite the rival. 

Ann: Her sisters were great. It was just kind of like… Yeah, all of her sisters were great. But yeah, I think the schemieness, like, just to survive Egypt, but then also her schemes like, “I’m going to team up with Julius Caesar. Oh, no, he’s dead. Who am I going to choose? Mark Antony.” Like, she always had an angle, she always had a plan, and they basically all… The plans that she made, she did. 

Gina: Yeah. And, you know, that’s the thing, if she didn’t really feel confident in these plans she had, again, we probably wouldn’t even know she existed because she would have failed the first time, and Rome would have taken over and that would have been it. So, I think that she has to rank high on that one because she not only came up with the scheme, but she 100% believed in herself when it came to those schemes. And that’s got to rank her at least a 9, at least. 

Ann: I think… I think I could go higher than 9. I’m just… 

Gina: You think she can get a 10? 9.5? 

Ann: Let’s do 9.5. I’m just thinking about, like, because all of her plans were great. And in Schemieness, I include other, you know, military plans or whatever and those are all great. But I’m just picturing this scheming of just sneaking around that palace to make the plan to usurp the power from her, like, siblings. Just, all those eunuchs are around and they’re just, like, stirring the pot. Like, who do you trust and who do you not trust? I don’t know. I just think like… 

Gina: How does she even ever get any sleep? I would be afraid to close my eyes, honestly. [laughs] I don’t know how… How do you do that?

Ann: Even if there’s a guard outside your door, it’s like, “Well, how do you trust him?” Like, maybe you could trust him this morning. But now he’s changed his mind at lunchtime. [laughs]

Gina: Exactly! How do you ever close your eyes? I would just be completely on edge at all times. 

Ann: I think she just like grew up in that scheming environment, seeing what her sisters were doing, and that just really gave her those tools for when she became queen to just, kind of, take it to the next level. 

Gina: And plus, it doesn’t seem like her brothers were very bright. [laughs]

Ann: They’re all called Ptolemy. And it’s like, good because none of them are different from each other. They’re all just the same person. It’s like, “Oh, she just married her new, young, toddler-aged brother, Ptolemy. Great.” Like, it’s just another Ptolemy, who cares? [Gina laughs] Which is crazy, not crazy, but it’s just, like, the fact that the whole dynasty started with Alexander the Great’s friend, Ptolemy. And but then, like, the most famous monarch of this whole dynasty is this woman. None of the Ptolemys… 

Gina: 300 years later, it’s the woman that stands the test of time. 

Ann: No one remembers any of the Ptolemys. 

Gina: I couldn’t tell you anything about ‘em. 

Ann: And if you can’t, then who can? [both laugh] 

Okay, the next one is her Significance, and this is where I think I fell down initially. But I think her significance to modern people, but her significance in the time, how she affected… People knew about her, did her actions have… How important were they? Like, where would you put her for significance? 

Gina: To be honest with you, significance in Egypt, I would say probably would rank a little lower.

Ann: Exactly, because they just didn’t…

Gina: She was just the pharaoh that, probably people didn’t even realize Ptolemy had died however many years before that. I don’t think she held a lot of significance with the overall Egypt. I think she had uber amount of significance in Roman society because of the hidden love and very shown hate that that whole society had for her. There was, you know, some people that secretly, probably seriously respected her because of the intellect that she had. Cicero would not have been one of those people that would have openly said that he respected her but I think he did have to have a certain respect for her because he respected intelligence above all else. And so, I think that he did have some, maybe even slight jealousy of her, I don’t know. But I think she held a huge amount of significance in Rome, offset by no one giving a damn in Egypt. 

Ann: Which is such a funny thing as well but yeah, it’s like… [inhales] Yeah, just the way that a person can make a country or a republic so obsessed. The parallel I’m going to make is just like the way that Great Britain can’t let go of Meghan Markle. 

Gina: [laughs] That woman didn’t do anything to any of them. Cleopatra didn’t do anything to Rome. When she first appeared, she slept with Caesar. Well, honestly, who didn’t? I mean, come on. [laughs] So, she didn’t do anything to any of those people, but they automatically built up in their minds how they needed to view her because she wasn’t Roman. Britain had built up in their minds how they had to view Meghan because she’s not white, even though she’s way lighter than me and can pass for white, probably, in most places, they don’t like her because she wasn’t, in their eyes, pure. 

So, that’s been just kind of human nature, apparently, that if you don’t fit exactly what someone thinks you’re supposed to, they’re going to villainize you for the remainder of their lives and in whatever history books they can write for it. So, that’s why I think that she would rank so high on the scale of Rome. And I don’t even want to say that I want to offset it with Egypt.

Ann: I don’t think I would. I think that she was so significant to Rome and the same way lots of people are born in one place, but they’re significant somewhere else. But then also the significance every year. It’s like in the Spirit Halloween, it’s like Cleopatra costume. It’s a name that everyone knows, like, she’s got…. 

Gina: How many movies? How many TV shows? Yeah, I mean, I’ve even seen her as a character on cartoons. So, you know, you don’t see that with Caesar. You don’t see that with Antony. 

Ann: No! 

Gina: You don’t see it with Ptolemy. [Ann laughs] [speaks rapidly, numbers slurred] I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV! You don’t see that, but you see it with her. You don’t even see it with any of the previous Cleopatras. You don’t see it with anybody but her. So, I would have to actually, honestly, I would give her a 10 on that because of how she has stood the test of time and significance overall, around the world. 

Ann: Yeah. And well, honestly, just thinking about like I’m looking at my fridge because I’ve got these like heroes of women’s history, like magnets or whatever and Cleopatra is one of them always because whenever you get those sorts of things, Cleopatra is always there. 

Gina: Always.

Ann: I don’t know if there’s another woman in history who is that mainstream, well-known, really. Unless you talk about, like, Queen Victoria or something, but not even. I’m thinking about like your sons, although they’re [chuckles] they’re in your house, so I’m sure they’ve heard lots of Egyptian names and lots of historical names. 

Gina: Oh, they have. Yeah. And that’s when I get the eye roll and the walk away. [laughs]

Ann: So, if I think about just the average, you know, 22-year-old person in the world, they’ve heard of Cleopatra. What other women from history have they even heard of? I don’t know. 

Gina: And, you know, I did that. Before I started really digging into Nefertiti and writing about her, I was around a lot of young people for a while there. And so, I was like, you know what? I want to see what they know. I want to see what they’re being taught in their history classes beyond, just, straight American history. And I would ask all these little individual kids that range from probably, like, 12 to 16, “Do you know who Akhenaten is?” Never heard it. Do you know who Nefertiti is? Let’s say out of 10 people, I’d have maybe two that knew. You ask them, “Do you know who King Tut is?” “Oh yeah!” Well, yeah, because that’s the one that gets talked about all the time. 

So, if you ask them, you know, anything about anybody else in history of Egypt, they’re not going to know. But you say “Cleopatra,” every single one of them knows, every one, whether they’ve had a history geek like me for a mom or not, you’re going to know Cleopatra for some reason or another. And that is just amazing to me that this person that was considered to be an insignificant temptress to them, we don’t even… You probably wrote something about her, you Roman scholar, dude, and your scrolls burnt up somewhere. No one knows you existed. But guess what? That little bitch that you didn’t like, we’re still talking about her today. 

Ann: I love how angry that would make Octavian. 

Gina: You know, if you go back in time and tell some of the people how some of these things have worked out, they… Oh, god. [laughs]

Ann: That she, out of this whole situation, and all the names we’ve just said, like, the only two that Cleopatra, I think almost everyone has heard of. Julius Caesar, maybe a bit less, but still. Octavian? No. Like… no. Cicero? No. 

Gina: I know. My dad is not into studying anything but the Bible. You know, he’s a reverend, I’m a pastor’s kid, religion is all there is to existence, apparently. And I could name off all these people and he’d be like, “I don’t know who that is.” But if I said Cleopatra, my dad would know who that was. You cannot… It’s just virtually impossible not to know the name Cleopatra. You might not know a whole lot about her, but you’re going to know the name. 

Ann: And it’s, you know, the thing at the very beginning, you were saying, you know, in Ancient Egypt, if they didn’t like you, they would chisel your name off or whatever. And that was isn’t that partly because like then no one will remember your name, no one will talk about you? So, the fact that Cleopatra’s memory is still alive, in some aspect, like, her spirit is still alive or something like that, where it’s just like, as long as people talk about you, you’re never forgotten. And she’s never not been talked about. 

Gina: And you know, the funny thing is (this is just me being me), I really feel bad that she didn’t get to have a traditional Egyptian burial, that she never got to use the tomb that she had started building. Because she really did consider herself Egyptian. I mean, if she didn’t, she wouldn’t have fought so hard for the country. And I feel bad that I don’t really know what they did with her. I highly doubt they actually buried her. They probably did what they did in Rome and, you know, built a pyre and burned her and cremated her and whatnot.

Ann: Had a parade of her bones or something. 

Gina: Yeah, but I really, she deserved it. I think she deserved to have a traditional Egyptian burial. And we deserved to discover her tomb with all her riches and her sarcophagus. But I just hate that she didn’t get to have that because she earned that. 

Ann: I agree, entirely. And I love that her daughter, Selene, kept up those religious beliefs, like, that culture. So, she was kind of honouring her mother in that way, too, just by, like, not setting that all aside and being like, “I’m Roman now, please don’t kill me.” But the fact that she knew that this was important to her mother and that she continued it, I think that’s nice. 

Gina: Because, you know, when you’re a young woman and you see women around you being strong, in a world where you’re basically being told the whole time you’re growing up that you’re not supposed to be that. But you see this woman, who also happens to be your mother, being strong and defiant and successful, that’s going to have a deep impression on you. Even though she was young when her mother died, she had all of that lifespan to have that imprint on her, to understand the importance of her mother and understand the importance of the traditions that she was surrounded by. And so, I’m really glad that she didn’t just give that up and just be like, “Oh, I don’t want to suffer that kind of fate. Whatever you guys say,” I’m really glad she held on to that. Unfortunately, it didn’t go any further than that. But the fact that she asserted her strength enough to not let go of that and to let people see that she hadn’t let go of that, you’ve got to admire that. 

Ann: Well, and I think it’s a big thing to live with in the aftermath of everything that just happened with Cleopatra and to be her daughter and to be also named Cleopatra. It’s just like, oh god, okay, I can’t… 

Gina: There’s no escaping it, you know? You’re labelled that for the rest of your life.

Ann: Everyone knows who you are. 

Gina: Yeah, and what happened and what you come from. So, you know, then it’s a matter of you having to make the choice of who are you going to be? What are you going to show the people around you? 

Ann: Yeah, like, are you going to own that? 

Gina: I think she picked a really good mix. Yeah! She picked a really good mix of it. 

Ann: Yeah, she wasn’t like, “I’m going to change my name to Livia and… [both laugh] be quiet.” She, I don’t know. So, I am really happy that that biography exists of her, Cleopatra’s daughter. 

Okay, the last category is the Sexism Bonus. And this is, like, from 0 to 10, how much did sexism get in the way of her living and thriving and doing the things she wanted to do? 

Gina: Now, that one, I can say, equally affected her on both sides, the Egyptian and the Roman, because she was never… until she got rid of all her gangly little brothers, she was never allowed to rule on her own.

Ann: Right, because it always had to be, like, a man-woman, or like, a woman-toddler pair. You had to have a boy. 

Gina: See, that’s the thing. That’s the whole Egyptian thing of they believed in ultimate balance. That was a major part of Egyptian society. Everything had to have a balance; that’s why you had Osiris and Isis. You always had to have the male-female balance in everything. So, I can kind of understand that to a certain point. But she clearly proved herself to be a better leader than those stupid little boys. So, to make her always be paired up with one. That is sexism on 100 level, that you can’t just let this intelligent young lady just handle business, you’ve got to put her with the snot-nosed punk.

Ann: Yeah, you got to be like, “Oh, you can’t just be queen, even though you’ve been doing it for years.” [Gina laughs] It’s like, “You need to have like a man with you. And by a man, I mean your 2-year-old brother.” 

Gina: Right, exactly. It just… yeah. So, I really say those two rank the same because she got it from both sides. Probably more from the Romans, but because it was kind of just royal Egyptian history, that’s just the way it was done in Egypt. Whereas they just kind of took it to a whole other level. But, you know, she was still allowed to learn; she was still allowed to learn languages, learn how to read, learn how to write. They didn’t let them really do that in Rome. So, sexism was on steroids there. So, she definitely got it worse from the Romans than she did the Egyptians. But she needs to get a serious, serious bonus for that one because she just had it coming from all sides. 

Ann: She did. And that’s what I always think about, like, in this category, it’s just specifically sexism, but anyone who has so much talent and skill and they need to waste their time dealing with this bullshit instead of just, like, getting to go out and excel in what they want to do. Yeah, it’s just… It comes up time and time again. Sometimes it’s sexism and sometimes it’s sexism and also racism. You know, it’s just like there’s so many people who like could be doing great stuff if they didn’t have to spend half their life being like, “No, I can do this.” 

Gina: Yep. I think that I’ve been in corporate America since I was 16, I’ve always worked in an office. And once COVID hit, we all had to start working from home and I just never went back to the office, I work from home. I can say that I am a million times more productive, not having to deal with all the microaggressions that I was dealing with in the office. I don’t have to deal with people looking at me crazy, talking to me crazy, I don’t have to deal with any of that. I can just focus and do my job. And so, you’re right. If she had just been left the hell alone and just allowed to rule the country, things would have been different. 

Ann: Yeah, just this… I’m comfortable with a 10 for that. 

Gina: I am too. 

Ann: Especially because it’s coming from both directions. So, this gives our girl Cleo, 34.5 out of 40, which is… I mean, her score before was ridiculous. I forget, it was like 28 or something. It wasn’t even over 30. I’m just putting her into this scale here to see where does she go. Actually, I’m looking to see, where did we put Nefertiti? Nefertiti was a 31.5. Cleopatra, 34.5. 

Gina: I think that’s fair because I don’t think that Nefertiti had to face a lot of the sexism and the microaggressions that Cleopatra did. 

Ann: She didn’t have to put up with Rome. 

Gina: No. You know, and the thing is, with how she was elevated by Akhenaten, as far as the level of queen that she was, she just didn’t have to deal with the stuff that Cleopatra did. 

Ann: Yeah, she had her own bullshit to deal with, Nefertiti, but she did not to the same extent as Cleopatra, who is just every day it’s just like, “Can I just do my job?” [both chuckle] No, that’s wonderful. Thank you. I’m much more comfortable with her being there. Yeah, 28, it was ridiculous. I’m scrolling through. She was on, like, page two of the list. [Gina laughs] It’s just like, “No, she’s Cleopatra.” But thank you. Thank you. She’s where she deserves to be, in the higher echelon. 

Gina: You know, I’m always willing to talk about a badass woman. 

Ann: [laughs] Well, and here we got like we got to get into the Rome of it all, which I know is your other major knowledge. 

Gina: It is. I’ve done a lot of reading there. So, it’s just that people think about individual societies. They don’t really ever think about how these individual societies affected other individual societies. And Egypt and Rome (Rome, period) so, so deeply intertwined with so many other societies and either they were working with them, or they were trying to conquer them. And, you know, Alexander was a menace, you know, he was going out trying to claim everything for him. But that mentality has always been around, where everyone always wants to have everything for themselves. 

So, you know, we talk about Egypt individually. We talk about Syria individually. We talk about Mitanni individually. We talk about Nubia individually. We talk about all that individually, but they all had such a major role and everybody else’s lives and if you really look at it in that way… I’m only surprised that humanity has lasted as long as it has. [laughs] 

Ann: It’s baffling. I know. Yeah. 

Gina: Because there’s been good things about merging, but there’s been way more bad things about merging. And so, it’s just weird how anyone has ever survived some of this stuff. Because even though some of it… Anyone that conquers is not doing it in a peaceful way. But some of them have been just so brutal, so brutal. How did anyone survive that? And so, Rome is one of them where they were so brutal on a lot of the places that they took over. How did the areas that they were conquering, how did they survive that in any way to be able to rise up and fight back against Rome? It’s just it’s amazing to me how society exists today because you would have thought they would have all just killed each other because they all thought that they had a right to everything and… No. [laughs] You don’t. 

Ann: And it just keeps happening over and over in history, there’s some new, like whatever, it’s Napoleon or whoever, like somebody just comes up to be like, “You know what I’m going to do? Take over everything.” It’s like, that never works out. [laughs]

Gina: And that’s the thing, you know, the trying to get rid of this, that and the other on what’s being taught in history classes in schools and stuff. But it’s like, you know, that’s why dumbasses keep doing the same stupid shit over and over because you are not paying attention to how that did not work out the last time someone tried it. But you know what? You… do you, I guess. 

The thing is, these people are making it, and it’s been like this forever, the people that consider themselves to be in control are the ones that are making the decisions and going out and doing these dumbass things. And then it’s the people under them that are suffering from it. But the people under them, for whatever reason, don’t make them stop. And that’s another thing that keeps happening time and time again, is the leaders are the ones that are out there doing all this stuff and everyone else is suffering from it. The ones that are suffering do something about it and that that never happened throughout history. Well, I won’t say never, but it rarely happened throughout history where the people that were suffering rose up and said, “You’re not doing a good job. We got to get rid of you.” 

Ann: Yeah. And it’s happened so few times successfully that you know, you can list them. It’s like the Haitian Revolution, that happened. Like… I’m trying to think. It’s so rare and so unusual. And I think part of it is like when we’re thinking about like an Ancient Egypt times, like, you know, these farmers or a picture, they’re like, “I don’t know who the pharaoh is, whatever. I’m just doing my job.” It’s like they’re doing this backbreaking work and they’re so tired at the end of the day. Like, how are they going to go to a meeting? How are they going to like learn they have rights? How are they going to organize? And that benefits the elites to keep them exhausted so that they can’t organize. And that’s still the case today!

Gina: It is. It’s happened to every society throughout history. And, you know, fine, so you don’t want to teach about the uprisings. But, you know, you need to teach about your defeats because your defeats are going to keep happening because you only want to focus on one small area where you might have been in power. But that’s not quite how it is now. So good luck to you. 

I’m waiting to see what’s going to happen in the next 15 years, where if they keep trying, if society keeps trying to suppress this, that and the other, you know, who’s going to get fed up? You know, that was the whole point of the Civil Rights Movement, Black folks got fed up. They had someone that stepped up and said, “You know what? Let’s get this organized.” They rallied behind that, those individuals, and they got what they were working for, to a certain extent. What’s going to happen in the next 15 years? You guys going to keep trying to suppress society? Well, you know, in today’s world, we have way too much information available to us. Back in the day, like, in Ancient Egypt, they had no information available to them on what was happening. Like you said, they were out there working their butts off in those fields and all they wanted to do is go home, eat, go to bed, you know? 

Ann: There was no way to, like, spread information back then either. There wasn’t a newspaper written on a papyrus scroll that you can… [chuckles] 

Gina: That someone’s riding on a horse to bring this stuff to you. Most of them probably hadn’t even seen horses. They all had cattle. So, it’s like, you know, it’s just… Things happened the way they did back then, and they probably had to happen that way because, just, the difference in advancements and everything, you know, that you just didn’t have it back then. And there weren’t as many people back then either. So, just in general, the human population just wasn’t as large. So, people just focused on “This is my world. That’s it.” You know? It’s not like that now, but they’re trying to make it like that now. And that’s one thing you’re not going to be able to go back on because you got too much available. 

Ann: Well, no, and especially I think, too, so much of it has to do with education. Like, Cleopatra, she learned these languages, she went out on the streets, like, you know, she saw what was going on and that helped her understand things. Versus if somebody’s not educated, then they don’t know what is happening, they don’t know that there’s other possibilities, they don’t know that there’s other countries where things are different. And so now, like, the overall standard of education is higher now than then. But then you see the stuff where it’s like, “Oh, let’s stop teaching this and this and this.” It’s like, you want to keep people ignorant because then they don’t know any better. 

Gina: But you know, you cannot claim ignorance. Back then, they could claim ignorance because the information wasn’t available. We’ve got so much information available to us and too many ways to get to it. 

Ann: Yeah, true.

Gina: You can’t claim ignorance anymore. I mean, to show me a 12-year-old out there that doesn’t have a damn cell phone. Well, last time I checked, unless your parents just completely locked that phone down, you’re going to be able to find whatever you want using that cell phone or get on the internet on your laptop. I mean, I don’t think there’s any parent on this earth that can lock their stuff down enough where a kid can’t find what they’re looking for. 

Ann: I know! So, what’s the point of like, “Let’s ban books.” 

Gina: Who reads a book at that age anymore? They look at… [laughs]

Ann: What’s that going to do? Like, okay, they can’t get a book, but they have their phone. Like, they have the internet. [chuckles]

Gina: And I think that that’s a major thing to think about when you had downfalls back in the ancient time is they just had lack of information, and they had lack of ability to get that information out there. So, you know, someone could have heard something about someone five years ago and they haven’t heard an update on it since then. Well then, all of a sudden, they hear that person’s name again like, “Oh, well they did such and such so I’m going to fight against them.” Well, they could have completely changed it to somebody completely different five years later, but with that lack of information, the lack of ability to get it out there, I think contributed to a lot of losing battles, a lot of not making the right decisions on different political stances on things because the information just wasn’t available. It just wasn’t possible. 

So, I don’t know how much that would have affected Cleopatra because she seemed to have a pretty good system of spies to get the information to her. However, it’s not like someone could pick up the phone and tell her. So, if someone was in Rome and they saw something happen, they write it down on a scroll and it takes five months to get it back to her. Well, what’s happened in that five months since that scroll was written? 

Ann: No, exactly! And that’s what’s so impressive to me about her. But I will say about like the others, you know, Julius Caesar, et cetera, the men, to be able to do a good job of staying on top of your shit when it takes months to get information from place to place, like…

Gina: Yep. And if you were landlocked, okay, fine. Put someone on a horse, they get to the next camp, they hand it off to someone with a fresh horse, they get it to the next. But you had you could not get to Egypt without sailing there. So, how long did it really take for them to get information about stuff to make informed decisions? [chuckles] Yeah, that would have made warfare back then extremely difficult, because you could never really keep up exactly with what was happening with things. And in a way, you have to feel sorry for them because, you know, they’re trying to make real-time decisions based on old information. And so, that’s always going to work against you. So, I think Cleopatra, as someone in today’s world, would be the ultimate queen of everything. 

Ann: Yes, I think if she didn’t have— Well, I mean, you just imagine like if she didn’t have to deal with like the patriarchy and stuff. But if also there wasn’t war going on, like, she might have been like a scholar or she might have… You know, like what would she have done if she didn’t have to spend all her time just, like, dealing with Rome? 

Gina: And murderous siblings. [laughs]

Ann: And murderous siblings. Kept her pretty busy. 

Gina: That in and of itself is a full-time job. 

Ann: No, that’s true. But yeah, I agree. I think if she was around today, I think she’d be like CEO, but also just like, I don’t know. I agree. I think she’d be doing all the things and she’d be excelling. Because if she has this, like, charisma, she’s going to get those investors, she’s going to get people to support her. She’s going to get people to follow her. Yeah. 

Gina: Yeah, it would be interesting to be able to bring some people from the past to today’s world and just have them just automatically caught up with how society works today, don’t be stuck in the things were back then, and just see how they would thrive. Because if you could thrive back then… Good Lord! [laughs]

Ann: Oh my god. The… Whatever, she was, what? 40 or something when she died? It’s just like, good job! 

Gina: That’s a long time to survive with all the stuff she had going on around there. I just can’t imagine. 

Ann: I can’t see anyone else in that situation doing any better than she did, basically. 

Gina: Agreed. Agreed. Based on what she had to work with, the information she got, whenever she got it, I honestly don’t think anyone could have done any better. 

Ann: Yeah. Cleopatra, a real one. Thank you so much, Gina. And I just want the listeners to know that you are going to be coming back soon! We’re going to be talking [laughs] in another extended Ann and Gina-length episode, it might have a Part One-Part Two, we’ll see. 

Gina: Well, I’m down for Part Three if needed. [laughs] 

Ann: [laughs] I’m going to block up the whole day and we’ll just… [both laugh] We’ll just see how it goes. But yeah, we can’t say what it’s about. But yeah, it’s about one of the things that you know a lot about. 

Gina: Oh, and I am greatly looking forward to that conversation. I always love geeking out with you. 

Ann: It’s so much fun. And then it’s funny, I post it and I’m like, “Oh god, people listened to that.” [laughs] 

Gina: [laughs] Sorry, folks! I don’t mean to drone on. 

Ann: Anyway. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me again. I can’t wait until we have our next chat, which will be pretty soon! 

Gina: Until next time, friend.  

—————

So again, if you are just like, “I love this vibe, I love the Ann and Gina vibe,” we’ve done two episodes before, and the two episodes before are each the length of three episodes. So, we did three-hour episodes about Nefertiti and also about Hatshepsut. So, just scroll back through wherever you’re listening to the podcast and just find those episodes if you want to hear more of Gina, who is such a star. I’m so happy to have her as a regular contributor on the podcast as well. 

So, you can keep up with this podcast. I have a Substack, it’s VulgarHistory.Substack.com, where I talk about— Actually, a little tie-in, I have an essay about Cleopatra on the Substack this week to tie in with these episodes. And then also, I’ve recently been travelling. I was on a trip to Edinburgh, London, and Braunschweig, AKA Brunswick, Germany. And if you want to see, just learn more about what I saw, I saw so many amazing things, you can keep up with me on my Patreon for free. You can become a free member of my Patreon, that’s at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter and that’s where I’ve been posting blogs and vlogs and just lots of responses about all the things I’ve been seeing on my incredible trip, including when I saw llamas. So again, Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter, become a free member to see all my travel posts. 

And then also, once you’re there, you can also choose to support the podcast on Patreon financially. So, if you pledge at least $1, just $1 and I don’t know if that’s… I’m not sure if it’s a Canadian dollar or a US dollar, but anyway, whichever it is, you get early, ad-free access to all episodes of this podcast. So, if you want to listen to the past episodes with Gina Berry, three-hour episodes, you don’t want it to become, like, three hours and five minutes because of advertisements, you can listen to it ad-free by becoming a Patreon paid member for $1 a month. If you become a member for $5 or more a month, you get access to, also, bonus episodes of Vulgarpiece Theatre, which is where I talk about costume dramas with Allison Epstein and Lana Wood Johnson. And then we also do episodes called So This Asshole about awful men from history. One of the things we talked about on Vulgarpiece Theatre, actually the most recent episode there, was we talked about the first two episodes of the 1976 British miniseries I, Claudius, maybe you’ve heard about it. The miniseries starts off with a celebration of the anniversary of the Battle of Actium, which is when Augustus defeated Mark Antony and Cleopatra. So, it all ties in. Anyway, that’s at Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter. 

And if you really want to celebrate Cleopatra via jewellery, then I recommend going to our brand partner, Common Era Jewellery, which is a woman-owned small business that makes beautiful pendants and rings inspired by women from classical history and from classical mythology, including Ms. Cleo herself. So, Cleopatra is part of what they call the “Difficult Women” collection, which I think is kind of like their way of saying Women Leaders and the Men Who Whined About Them, which again, perennially a timeless thing that just keeps happening. Anyway, so you can get your Cleo pendant, as well other people are there, like actually, who we’re talking about next week, Agrippina the Younger, you can get her on jewellery as well. Anne Boleyn is there as well; everyone is classical history, except for Anne Boleyn because she deserves it because she’s classical in her own way. Anyway, their pieces are available in solid gold as well as in more affordable gold vermeil. And if you’re listening to this, Vulgar History listeners can always get 15% off all items from Common Era by going to CommonEra.com/Vulgar or using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout. 

You can get Vulgar History merchandise at our merch store. So, if you go to VulgarHistory.com/Store, that takes you to our TeePublic store. All the designs are there, and you can choose what you want to put the design on. Do you want to put the design on a mug, or on a T-shirt, or on a sticker, or a magnet? And then just, like, have a weird, niche, inside joke thing, the conversation piece. If you’re outside the US, the shipping is better if you go to our Redbubble store, which is VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com, which is the exact same experience, basically. You just choose the design you like and decide what you want to put it on and what colour you want it to be. 

You can get in touch with me if you want to say nice things about Gina and demand that Gina comes on the podcast more, or whatever you want to say. There’s an email form that you can use at VulgarHistory.com. You just click on, “Contact Me” or you can send me a DM. My DMs are open on Instagram where I am @VulgarHistoryPod. 

Next week again, it’s another classique, a classic revisiting of one of our episodes from 2020. And it’s Agrippina the Younger, which is so interesting to revisit that in the context of having now myself watched I, Claudius, the mini-series. It has a very different portrayal of Agrippina than how I think of her. But anyway, that’s what we’re going to be revisiting next week. We’re on a little mini hiatus from Season Seven, Marie Antoinette episodes, but those are going to be resuming shortly. 

But until next week, all my friends, keep your pants on and your tits out. 

Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com.

References:

Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff

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