Peg Plunkett, part three (with Karyn Moynihan)

Vulgar History Podcast

Peg Plunkett, Part Three (with Karyn Moynihan)

July 17, 2024

Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women’s history comedy podcast, my name is Ann Foster. First of all, this is Season Seven of this podcast that has been going on now for almost five years! And this is also Part Three within that, Part Three of the Peg Plunkett three-part saga. This is the climactic finale of the Peg Plunkett saga. 

So, in Parts One and Two, we learned about this young woman and how she fled from her horrible brother Christopher to thrive in, kind of, casual sex work, and then it turned into literal, like, actual professional sex work. She opened her brothel and she just kept thriving despite being in the midst of this situationship with a really toxic, horrible man called, whimsically (although he sucked) Buck Lawless. Then she ran afoul of the Pinking Dindies, again, a cute name for a horrific organization of just awful people. And through it all, Peg just kept brushing herself up and having a baby every year and just, like, kept going at it. And this is Part Three of this three-part saga. Our guest for this episode, as it has been for parts one and two of the Peg Plunkett saga is Karyn Moynihan. 

So, Karyn is a friend of the podcast. She’s also a podcast co-host herself, she co-hosts with Anna Carey, Double Love: The Sweet Valley High Podcast, my most favourite of podcasts. I’m so delighted to get to chat with her on this episode. She’s the one who brought Peg Plunkett to my attention in the first place so Karyn, thank you for that. Also, she’s a graphic designer and she is the genius mind behind numerous of the designs in the Vulgar History merch store, including merchandise that I’ve been teasing these last two weeks that I’m finally ready to announce is available in the Vulgar History merchandise store, which is a Peg Plunkett design by Karyn Moynihan. 

The image, the layout, looks like sort of an advertisement or like you might see in a coaster for an Irish pub sort of vibe. It says, “Peg Plunkett’s.” And then there’s lots of words on it, all of them historically accurate and/or hilarious. So, it gives the address on Drogheda Street in Dublin, established 1778, then there’s sort of a profile picture, Peg’s face, her beautiful face and profile. You know, some of the rules of the establishment are listed on this design as well. “Manners encouraged,” “First served, first come.” It’s Peg’s motto. It also says, “All pleasures and peculiarities welcomed. Strictly no Pinking Dindies permitted.” And there’s one more joke on this design that I’m not going to tell you because it’ll ruin the jump scare that’s going to happen in this episode. 

Anyway, you can get this beautiful design on various things. You can get this on a T-shirt, I think it looks nice; it’s like a white design so it looks nice on a green background or on a black background. You can choose your colour. You can also get this on magnets, on stickers. When I was going through the site to just choose what to put the design on, there were lots of options that I did not choose. But I was just kind of like, this is pretty iconic for Peg, a duvet cover, a bathmat. And I was just, like, imagining her establishment having Peg merch in it; she would have merchandised a hell of a bit if these sorts of companies had been around then. You can also get this on coasters, which is a real Peg vibe, travel mug, various things. 

Anyway, the way that you can get this merchandise is if you’re in the United States, I recommend going to VulgarHistory.com/Store. And that takes you to our TeePublic site, which is a great service for people who live in the United States in terms of shipping fees. If you live anywhere other than the United States, I recommend going to VulgarHistory.Redbubble.com. All the same stuff is available on both sites, it’s just the Redbubble site is better for people outside the US and TeePublic works great for people within the US, and I know there’s people listening from all over the place, and I think we all want this Peg Plunkett merch. So anyway, the links are in the show notes as well, so you can pick up your Peg merch. 

I think that’s enough of a preamble, frankly, this is the third part. If someone’s listening to this without listening to Parts One and Two, you know, I support your choices. I think you might understand it better if you listen to Parts One and Two. But if you just want a raw dog episode three, I think Peg would be in favour of that as evidenced by her continual pregnancies she kept experiencing. Anyway, here’s me and Karyn wrapping up this incredible saga of a true tits-out pioneer, Peg Plunkett. 

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Ann: Her life, like, reading it like if it was a novel or a book or a movie, you’d be like, “Oh, you know, here’s what I want her to do.” But it’s like, no, she needs to continue living in this city. 

Karyn: This is the thing, yeah. And yeah, it’s a tricky time to be a woman, full stop. So, I mean, she’s having to deal with a lot. 

Ann: Yeah. So, her decisions, that’s where I want that, like, final scene of Showgirls moment where she just like kicks the shit out of him.

Karyn: [chuckles] Yes! So badly.

Ann: But that’s not, you know, that’s not what she’s able to do. 

Karyn: It just, it wasn’t going to be feasible. 

Ann: Yeah. Well, and then, you know, moving away from that into another petty, woman-on-woman, bitch rivalry, an English actress named Anne Catley comes to Dublin to perform. 

Karyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh, Anne. [laughs] 

Ann: And so, Peg, just… Please tell the story. 

Karyn: Okay. So, Peg discovers that Anne has apparently spoken scurrilously about Peg to this, like, gentleman friend of hers. And Peg is like, “She fucking what?” as soon as she hears about this. So, she like runs around trying to find this Anne Catley. She’s not at her house. She’s like, “All right, fine. She’s at the theatre.” Can’t find her there either. So, Peg is just, like, dying for a fight, basically, to just confront this woman. Can’t find her anywhere. About two days later, she’s in town in her carriage and she sees Anne coming out the stage door of the theatre that she’s in. So, Peg calls her over to the carriage and basically tells her, “Who the fuck do you think you are coming over here and slagging me off?” And she calls her a “Streetwalking London ballad singer” and says she’ll “have her hissed every time she comes on stage.” 

And an hour later, Peg sees her again and she’s like, “I’m not done yet,” [Ann laughs] and just keeps going, just firing insults at this woman, just like, “You little bitch! How dare you?” So, at this point, Anne runs into a shop and faints, or at least “Pretended to do so,” is how Peg puts it. 

Ann: “Herman, my pills!” she said. 

Karyn: Big time, Herman, my pills! Anne is there with her son, I think. So yeah, she runs into the shop, faints. Peg is like, she’s pretending to faint. So, it’s this whole big to do. Anne goes running to this friend of hers, Colonel Lascelles, and he’s like, “Oh, this will not stand.” So, they go to sue Peg for slander for all this abuse that she’s thrown at her in the street. 

Ann: And it goes to a jury trial where the anti-English sentiment and the way that Peg has been influencing her way, spending so much money in the shops and encouraging other people to buy more fabric, sides in her favour. 

Karyn: Mm-hm. The jury love Peg. Everyone loves Peg!

Ann: Everyone loves Peg. 

Karyn: They love her! Yeah, she says that some of the gentlemen observed to the rest:

It would be a pity not to favour a woman who by spending considerable sums amongst traders of this city was of service to it, preferable to a woman who was only a bird of passage who came here to pick up all she could from the public and then carry it to another country, as it was well known that Kathleen never laid out a single farthing in Dublin that she could avoid. 

So, the jury are like, “All right, fuck her. We’re obviously siding with Peg.” [laughs]

Ann: I love that. I love that. And that’s why, like when we were mentioning, like the hoop skirts and the fabric, like everyone’s just like “Peg, you’re popularized and like wearing literal curtains on the street.” 

Karyn: “Let’s do it.” [laughs]

Ann: Love this. Love you, Peg. 

Karyn: Everyone loves her. 

Ann: I love this. Yeah, just the fact that they took her to court and she’s just like, “I’m Peg Plunkett so like, fuck you!” 

Karyn: Come on. 

Ann: Yeah. And everyone’s like, “We love you, Peg!”

Karyn: Yeah, “Nice try Anne.” [laughs]

Ann: And then Buck Lawless, tragically not yet dead and still in the story. [Karyn laughs] He was in London and Peg was like, “Well, I’ll go hang out with him in London for a while, I guess.” 

Karyn: Yeah, yeah. She doesn’t really want to, but he keeps writing to her. So, she’s like, “All right, fine. Let’s give this another shot, I guess.” Oh, Peg, please don’t. 

Ann: [sighs] Like I have had friends who are in where you’re just like “Break up with this person.” 

Karyn: Oh god, yeah.

Ann: And they do, but then they get back together and then they… Like, this is like relatable content. 

Karyn: It really is. This is the thing. She’s a relatable queen. 

Ann: Yeah. I mean, there’s like celebrity stories you see like this where you’re like, “Oh my god, finally these two are split up,” and it’s just like, “Oh god, no, you took him back. Nooo!” 

Karyn: Oh my. 

Ann: [sighs] Buck Lawless. So anyway, she moves in with Buck Lawless, but right away finds out that he has another woman who he’s like living with or something. 

Karyn: Yeah, he’s keeping a girl behind her back. It’s kind of how it’s put in the book. 

Ann: Don’t know what that means. 

Karyn: Yeah, there’s another woman on the scene. So, Peg, at this point, she’s like, “All right, fuck this.” So, she gets her own place, but still in London. She’s like, “I’m going to hang out here for a little bit at least and see what the story is.” But yeah, she moves to her own her own lodgings in London. 

Ann: Okay, I need to take this next part because this ties in. As listeners know, and you probably do too, I’m currently working on writing a book about Caroline of Brunswick. 

Karyn: Yes! 

Ann: And this is Peg Plunkett meets the Prince of Wales, AKA Prinny, the future regent, the husband of Caroline of Brunswick. I was like, “Oooh! Content for my book.” But also, Peg Plunkett, relatable queen, like, trolls him as I would if I was there. So…

Karyn: She’s fucking amazing. Oh my god, I love it.

Ann: So, she’s great. So, he’s like, I don’t know, 18 or 19 at this point. He’s not yet married Caroline of Brunswick, but he’s like, everyone hates him already because he sucks. [Karyn laughs] She goes in a fabric store and he’s in the same fabric store and he’s like, “Oh, I want this velvet and this silk,” and whatever. And then Peg goes up and she’s like, “I too want that velvet and that silk.” And she’s just like, trolling him, basically. 

Karyn: Because she wants to send it to her shoemaker in Dublin as a gift, is kind of the real kicker there that it’s like “Not even for someone fancy, it’s for my shoemaker.” [laughs] 

Ann: Love it. I love that she sees him and that’s her first instinct. 

Karyn: Oh, she’s so great. She’s so great. 

Ann: Yeah. She was out, I believe, riding, she was riding a horse and he’s in a carriage, I think is what happened. Yeah. At first, I was like, are they both in carriages? No, she’s riding a horse, she’s going to go visit a friend. And his carriage came up behind and they’re like, “Move, it’s the prince!” And then she yells back at him. I want to feel like she like slows down her horse to like, say directly to him in his carriage. 

Karyn: Oh, yeah. 

Ann: And she says, “There is room sufficient. There is one half the road for him, and I have as much right to the other half as he or anyone else.” And then the prince scowled at her and looked “As sour as if he would have bitten her nose off,” is how Peg described it. And then she kept trolling him; she kept galloping to keep up with the carriage riding next to him the whole way. 

Karyn: It’s so fucking good. It’s so good. And all he can do is glare at her and she’s just like, “Yeah, I’m still here, bitch.” [laughs]

Ann: Like I love, I love… I love her! I love her. 

Karyn: I love her so much. 

Ann: As though I could love her more, I’m just like, oh! Like, this is one of my historical nemeses is Prinny the Prince of Wales and I’m just like, “Yes, Peg! Fuck up his day.” 

Karyn: Like honestly, an Irish woman giving shit to a monarch, I’m like, who is not here for that? Come on. [laughs] Because her friends ask her afterwards why she didn’t move aside and she said to them, “Part of the road was for my use as well as for that of the king and if you English are servile and timid, we Irish are not.” Get their asses, Peg. [laughs]

Ann: An Irish icon, just a petty icon. We love it. 

Karyn: So petty. I love the pettiness. It’s so good. 

Ann: It’s so good. It’s so nonstop. Like, life circumstances, another person might not still have this spirit about them, but Peg is….

Karyn: This is the thing. She’s just great. 

Ann: She’s resilient, she’s not going to not be herself. Anyway, she falls ill with pleurisy, which oldey- timey disease, as far as I know. She fell ill but stayed out dancing because that’s just her vibe. 

Karyn: Yeah. I think in her memoir, she actually says, “I tried to dance it off.” And it’s like, “Peg, no! [laughs] That is not the answer.” It’s like, “I’ll go to a ball. It’ll be fine.” 

Ann: Which again, feels like something Jessica Wakefield would do. 

Karyn: Honestly, very Jessica. She’s very Jessica-coded, I have to say. Like she’s so funny. 

Ann: So anyway, dancing does not cure it. So, she takes to bed for a month afterwards, during which time her household staff stole all her stuff. 

Karyn: [stressed tone] Oh man. Yeah. So, she’s just like, “Fuck London,” and went back to Ireland and everyone’s happy to see her! She’s back. 

Karyn: Of course, they are. They’re delighted. They’re so happy to see her! She stays with, oh yeah, Sally, I think is living with this lady, Moll Hall, they’re probably running a brothel together in the meantime. So, she just hangs out with them until she kind of gets back on her feet because she has some stuff still with her. She had bought enough presents, I think, at this point and they weren’t stolen in the big fucking theft by the staff before she left. So, she has enough stuff when she comes back that people don’t think she’s broke. So, she’s got all these fancy presents for her friends. So, they’re all just like, “Oh cool, Peg’s back and she’s got loads of presents for us. This is fucking great. She’s amazing!” 

Ann: Well, that’s kind of the thing with Peg, just to foreshadow her later era, it’s always very important to her to have fancy, beautiful stuff. And just as a business decision, like, she wants to be like, “My establishment is the fanciest. I am an elegant…” Like, she wants to appeal to very rich people. So, she always has the best of everything. So, she needs to always look wealthy, even if at this point, she’s not actually wealthy. 

Karyn: Yeah, that’s really important, I guess, in that and in her trade as well. I mean, you need to look fancy. Yeah. 

Ann: Yeah. And you need to, you want people to walk in and see like, oh, it’s nice, clean, I don’t know, sheets and, like, sparkling silverware. Everything has to look nice because that makes people want to come there. 

Karyn: Of course. Yeah, makes sense. 

Ann: Okay, and then the thing happens with the Italian impresarios. 

Karyn: Okay, yeah. [laughs] God, these guys. Yeah. So, it’s this Italian violinist, Signor Carnavalli, comes to Smock Alley, which is this like really famous theatre in Dublin at the time and he decides that these nights of the opera he’s going to run are going to bar certain kinds of people from attending and as Peg puts it, “Every lady of my description.” So, obviously, she’s not having that, she just buys her ticket and goes to the theatre anyway, and then is thrown out by the doorman. She loses an earring in the whole fracas because she puts up a fight, she’s not going quietly, like, ever. [chuckles] And she’s furious at this. So, she gets a warrant against them for assault and robbery because they detained the ticket that she’d paid for and didn’t let her. 

Ann: Oh, I thought the robbery was the earring. 

Karyn: Oh, no, I think it’s the ticket. [laughs] She’s like, “I’ve got other earrings.” So yeah, she returns. She gets to like the meanest bailiffs that she can find, comes back with them, who then haul Carnavalli and his doorman off to Newgate Prison because she’s just like, “Fuck you. You can’t tell me I can’t go to the theatre. I go to the theatre and those are my seats, and you can’t just take my money and not let me in. Not happening.” 

Ann: But this is also like her connections; she knows the bailiffs, she knows the barristers. Like she goes to them and they’re like, “Oh yeah, Peg for you, anything. Yeah, let’s go.” 

Karyn: Yeah! Absolutely. “Let’s sort her out.” 

Ann: Then she goes back to try to get in the theatre again. But they’re like, “All is forgiven! Please come in.” 

Karyn: Oh yeah. Yeah, they give her the freedom of the house, I think is how they put it. So, she can just go for free now to the opera. And she’s like, okay. She’s kind of like, “Don’t actually want to go that much,” so she goes a few times just to make the point so that people can see her there and know that like she’s won over his stupid rules and that they obviously didn’t apply to her because she’s Peg Plunkett. What are they going to do? Not let her in. Like not going to happen. [chuckles]

Ann: Also, I’m a hundred percent on her side at this point, but also, she is the one who started the feud with Kitty that led to people yelling abuse in the theatre seats. So…

Karyn: Yeah. [laughs] That is true. 

Ann: So, one might understand someone wanting to apply some rules to theatre decorum. 

Karyn: I guess. I also feel like the theatre at the time was also just super fucking rowdy and it’s like, nobody was sitting there quietly behaving themselves. You know, it’s fine. It was a bit of a free-for-all. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah. And then at least in– Oh! My cat is here just so you know. 

Karyn: So, it’s not your tail? Okay. [laughs]

Ann: No, it’s not my tail there slapping the microphone. So, she decides to host a masquerade. 

Karyn: Oh, hell yeah. Like specifically because the government had banned them. She’s like, “All right, time to do it.” 

Ann: Yeah. So, it was like the new trendy thing. Like, I didn’t know, masquerades as a thing had just started earlier that century. Anyway. So, yeah, “Dublin had banned masquerades due to leading to some public disturbances in the recent past,” which is a real vague way to say…

Karyn: Oh yeah, Mm-hm. Clearly, some shit went down. 

Ann: So, Julie Peakman says “Peg was unconcerned about the law as its representatives would be at the party.” 

Karyn: Yeah, they were. [laughs] Yeah, she organizes a tab in her own house, prints up 200 tickets for all her pals, the whole thing is the talk of the town. And then as she puts it, “Those who had tickets applauded my spirit, those who could not procure any condemned me for my impudence.” So basically, if you were going, you were happy about it, and if you weren’t, you were just jealous and bitter. [chuckles] 

Ann: But also, like, the concept of a masquerade party and the costumes just is, again, very Sweet Valley High-coded because they love a costume party!

Karyn: They really do. Honestly, yeah, it’s a Lila Fowler party. 

Ann: Exactly, exactly. So yeah. And she threw more than one masquerade. I just wanted to mention her costumes at some of them: Cleopatra, Messalina, which I love, I haven’t done a Messalina episode, but she was a trashy, slutty bitch from Roman history [Karyn laughs] and that’s a great choice, Peg. 

Karyn: Love it.

Ann: And then also, ironically, she came dressed as Diana AKA the chastity. 

Karyn: The goddess of chastity. And there is a line from her about it, how she’s kind of saying, “Well, you know, it is a masquerade, so I have to come as some assumed character. So, obviously I’m coming as the goddess of chastity,” because she’s just… she’s such a funny bitch. Like, I love her.

Ann: I love it. I love it. I know. And her costumes were always that sort of like a queen or a goddess. And some of the other people, it’s like, “She came dressed as an orange seller and she came dressed as a nun.” Her costumes were on a different level from the other people. They didn’t really understand the brief, the costume. 

Karyn: Yeah, she got it. 

Ann: Don’t dress as an orange seller. 

Karyn: [laughs] Where’s the glamour? Come on.

Ann: I don’t know. “I have this orange. I guess I could just like pretend to be an orange seller.” 

Karyn: Sure. 

Ann: Okay. So, she’s just like, you know, earlier, the biographer had been like, “This was the happiest time of her life.” I’m like, “No. This is the happiest time of her life.” 

Karyn: She is having a great time here; like her house is hopping, everyone’s mad about her. She’s just having parties, having a great time, just writing whatever she wants. Like she’s living it up. She is. 

Ann: And so, she fell in love with a handsome soldier – take a drink every time she falls for a handsome soldier – [Karyn chuckles] named Robert Gorman. I like this story because his father, perhaps understandably, was like, “I forbid you…” 

Karyn: I guess, fair.

Ann: “… from seeing Peg,” and kept a watch over him. But Peg had bribed the household staff. 

Karyn: Oh, she’s just so good at winning over household staff. That’s the thing. But not her own, apparently, because they keep robbing her. But everyone else is fine. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah, which is interesting. That’s a great point. But I love this. So, the father was like, you know, the staff is going to watch him. And he’s like, “How does he keep getting out? I don’t understand.”

Karyn: [laughs] Yeah, I think Robert is literally climbing on someone’s shoulders to get out an upper window to sneak out and see her and he eventually catches him. And he’s like, “Okay, I’m going to have to send you off somewhere.” 

Ann: Yeah. He says, “I’m going to send you off to India to be a soldier in India.” Because, again, this is a time period where, like, the English colonial project is going all over the world. But then this is great. So, you know, he’s like, “Okay, I have to go to India, Peg. But, you know, first, I’ve got to London, because that’s where I’ll be deployed from.” But then his departure was delayed, and Peg was like, “I’ll come fuck you in London.” 

Karyn: Hooray! 

Ann: For six months! 

Karyn: Yep. [laughs] That’s a lot of fucking.

Ann: Which she did. And the father is just like, “Oh!”

Karyn: “Damn it, Peg. How does she keep doing this?” [laughs]

Ann: She’s like, what’s the thing? It’s like weevils wobble, but they don’t fall over. Like, she’s just like… 

Karyn: That is her, yeah. 

Ann: Yeah, she just, like, always finds a way. So, after he goes off to India, I guess. But he did write her like letters. Oh, he had, like, a miniature of her that he took with him and stuff. 

Karyn: Oh, that’s cute. 

Ann: Which is like, good for you. But like, you know, she’s going to be fucking. And she actively is fucking like 25 people, today. 

Karyn: Soon as you were like literally out of her eyeline, it’s over. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah. So, she goes back to Dublin. And this is where… So, we’re still in the American Revolution era, but soldiers were hanging out in Dublin, waiting to be deployed to fight in America. And she’s just like, you know, “Hot hunks everywhere, I’ll choose one.” And she chose Handsome Jack or a man… I don’t know, what’s his real name in the book. It’s Jack St Leger. 

Karyn: Yeah, Jack St Leger is mentioned very briefly. She just says that he was her “particular acquaintance” and “charming indeed, far exceeding all I ever knew.” So, he does sound like a very charming dude. 

Ann: Yeah. So, Julie Peakman looked up to be like, who is this guy? And I was like, “Oooh, who’s this guy?” So, he’s AKA Handsome Jack. That is… Yeah, right? So, he was an army officer/courtier and a close friend of Prinny, the Prince of Wales. And Prinny said Handsome Jack was “One of ye best fellows that ever lived,” which coming from him must mean like, “This guy fucks.” 

Karyn: I was going to say, yeah, what’s his take on people like those? [laughs] Okay. 

Ann: So, Jack St Leger. So, already an accomplished rake.

Karyn: Yeah, I love that. That’s a job title, basically, in Georgian-era England and Ireland. It’s like, “Oh, he’s a rake.” “Oh okay, cool. I know everything about him now.” [laughs] 

Ann: Exactly. So, he had some years earlier, hung out at the court of Louis XVI in France. So, he’s just like fucking his way around. He probably met Marie Antoinette. 

Karyn: Probably at that age. 

Ann: Yeah. He was just kind of I don’t know, he’s just Handsome Jack. He’s just a hot guy. And he’s… Anyway. So, let’s see… So, oh, and actually. So Prinny’s father, George III, who is the king at this time in England, AKA Farmer George from Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story.

Karyn: Oh, okay. Yeah, of course. 

Ann: Anyway, the madness of King George. Anyway, his dad was like, Prinny, he was like, “Stop hanging with Handsome Jack. He’s a bad influence on you.” So, anyway. That’s who Peg is fucking now. This, like, legendary fuckboy. This is kind of like her equal in terms of fucking around. 

Karyn: It’s yeah… The fuckboy and the fuckgirl. Good for them. 

Ann: That would be a lovely Regency romance novel. 

Karyn: [laughs] United at last. 

Ann: They’re at the top level, yeah.

So, what is Handsome Jack doing in Ireland? Well, he had spent all his money. And I think he was just kind of set there to stay out of trouble for a while. So, while in Dublin, he teamed up with Buck Whaley, who you mentioned before, to revive the Dublin Hellfire Club, notorious for their debauchery, which is another, I would, I guess, the way you describe the Pinking Dandies. Like, I assume it’s another, like, gentleman’s club/gang. 

Karyn: Exactly. And the Dublin Hellfire Club were, they were like a 1730s, 1740s kind of crew. And so, Buck Whaley’s dad was Robert Chapel Whaley, and he had a nickname of Burn Chapel Whaley because he hated Catholics so much and would literally just set fire to churches. So, he set up the Hellfire Club with another gang of assholes. And they had this clubhouse out in the Dublin Mountains that’s still there. It’s a ruin now, but it is the Dublin Hellfire Club out in the mountains. It’s very cool. But they had a painting made of them and everything that’s in the National Gallery, like that you can look up and just see all these guys and their big, giant wigs and it’s like “The Dublin Hellfire Club,” there they are. And there was a Limerick Hellfire Club, too. There was a bunch of Hellfire Clubs all around the place and in England, too. 

But yeah, Buck Whaley. So, he tried to revive it. But their group was called the Holy Fathers instead of the Hellfire Club. So, he did kind of try and get it going again under this other name. But again, it was just a club of rich guys drinking and causing trouble. Yeah. 

Ann: I just have one story, one fact to share about Handsome Jack, which is that there was a whole thing about like, “Oh, is he having an affair with this woman?” And later it turns out like, yes, he was. But the reason why the scandals, because she was married, the scandal rumours started was because [chuckles] he, I don’t know– Okay, I don’t know about like meal etiquette in like 1780s Dublin. But I guess you would swish water in your mouth to clean your teeth after eating and he erotically drank this woman’s used tooth-cleaning water and everyone’s like, “[gasps] Herman, my pills! Are they having an affair?” 

Karyn: Whoa. What else are they sharing? [laughs]

Ann: “He’s not concerned about her fluids.” 

Karyn: Nope. [laughs] Oh, my God. Like, how do you do that in a sexy way? It’s just, eugh!

Ann: I think you only can if you have the looks of Handsome Jack. 

Karyn: You see, being a handsome man will get you far. That’s the thing. [laughs]

Ann: Yeah. And so, he’s like, “No, no, we’re not having an affair.” But in fact, later on, they did. And she was some very scandalous woman, too. But I had to include that detail because I didn’t know. Do you still do this in Ireland? I don’t know. 

Karyn: [laughs] Funnily enough, no.

Ann: No? Okay, that’s not how you declare… 

Karyn: Just do a regular tooth brushing and keep that water to yourselves. [chuckles]

Ann: So, this is her lover at this point. I feel like they’re at I really think they’re on a similar level of just, like, audacity. 

Karyn: Definitely. 

Ann: Anyway, so at this point, Peg is in her early forties at the height of her profession, the reigning vice queen of Dublin. 

Karyn: That’s her, yeah. 

Ann: So, her establishment was known as the best in town – I think it always had been, but now everyone knew. And everyone went there, lower lieutenants, judges, politicians. She kept things new, like she kept, you know, revamping, getting new wall hangings and new… 

Karyn: I think she’d moved to a new house at this point. This is Pitt Street. Yeah, so Pitt Street, there’s actually a hotel on that site now. So, it’s the Westbury Hotel in Dublin. It’s kind of pretty much in or about where this house would have been when she said it up.

Ann: That is where I will stay when I come to Dublin. 

Karyn: You should! Yes. [laughs]

Ann: Ghost of Peg. She’s just knocking around there somewhere probably, still pregnant, probably. But she yeah, she spent loads of money on this house and she made it… It was kitted out in superb and luxuriant style with, like, lascivious prints and paintings. Her footmen all had, like, embroidered delivery. There was a fresh importation of gorgeous new girls over from like Covent Garden and Drury Lane that she had handpicked herself. So, she’s set up; this house is gorgeous, the girls are gorgeous, everything’s lovely. So, she is ready to go in this new place. 

Ann: I do like the mention of the erotic artwork because later we learned that she is a fan herself reading pornographic books as well. She just… Everything about her is just horny. 

Karyn: She’s so horny all the time. [laughs] 

Ann: She’s like Samantha from Sex and the City is her vibe, actually. 

Karyn: Basically, yeah. Yup.

Ann: But has been since age 15. 

Karyn: Well, look, yeah, I mean, that lady is never not pregnant because she is just constantly fucking.

Ann: Yeah. Okay, so at this point, Charles Manners, the 4th Duke of Rutland, came to town. So, he is– I will say this, and you can explain what this is. So, he was “The new Viceroy of Ireland tasked with achieving Anglo-Irish union.” 

Karyn: Yeah, okay. Good luck with that. [laughs]

Ann: That’s like when, oh, what’s his name? Jared Kushner was like, “He’s going to solve peace in the Middle East.” [Karyn laughs] Like, I feel like it’s the same thing. “Charles, you fix this.”

Karyn: “You can sort this out, right?” He’s like, “Yeah, sure, I’ll just go hang in Dublin for a bit. It’ll be fine.”

Ann: Yeah. And what did what did Peg write about? What did she write about when he, like, burst in literally? 

Karyn: Yeah, she because she was just having tea with her pals, I think Kitty Netterville was there as well. They were all just having their tea, chatting, and he just kind of turns up with this huge, like, armed guard of guys beside him on horseback, just like bursts into the house and he’s like, “I’m here now,” and she’s like, “Okay, cool.” And he only wants Peg because she’s the best. But she’s into him, too. So, they just party and drink and fuck for like 16 hours. And all his guards stay on horseback outside the house while this is happening. 

Ann: Sixteen hours. 

Karyn: Yep. So, it’s super obvious that he’s there because his entire armed bodyguard are outside the house all night long. So, everyone’s starting to gather around the house. Like, “What’s going on in Peg’s place? Why are there all these like militia dudes on horseback all night long?” And she’s been sending out food and drink to all the guys on horseback in the meantime as well. So, they’re all well-fed and aren’t going to try and move along or anything. 

Ann: I think this is how they’re going to solve the Anglo-Irish conflict. 

Karyn: [laughs] Just fuck your way to unity. 

Ann: I think if you put Peg in charge, she could do it. 

Karyn: [giggles] I think so. 

Ann: And so, he said, I don’t know how she described this in her book, but he was so impressed by her that he promised that he would put her on the government pension list under an assumed name. He clearly did not based on her finances. 

Karyn: Yeah, she does say that he did that. But as far as she’s concerned, yeah, he did that. And it happened. And isn’t that great? And I was like, “Oh, Peg… No, he didn’t.” 

Karyn: That’s another, like, relatable queen thing about her is she’s still… Like, despite everything she’s been through in all the situations and how she’s so smart in so many ways, she still is so naïve about things. 

Ann: There’s this real innocence to her. It’s so weird, isn’t it? That you kind of feel like she’d be real cynical at this point, but she just isn’t. She just still has this kind of optimism and hopefulness to her. 

Ann: And trusting people! 

Karyn: Trusting. And always the people that she absolutely shouldn’t. So, there is this weird naivety to her, but she’s just she’s so endearing. I just… I love her so much. 

Ann: I love her. 

Karyn: At these points, I’m just like, “Peg, you need to follow up on these things.” [laughs]

Ann: Finances was not a part of her life. You know what? But she grew up… I don’t know. Like Christopher was just being like, “No one has any money ever.” So, I think, like, as a reaction, the fact she’s like, “And I shall now spend all my money constantly,” like, is sort of a trauma response, maybe. 

Karyn: Yeah, probably. Yeah, like she just never had anything saved, like to hold her over for any time ever. She’s either having the best time, living the best life, drinking all the champagne, or she’s completely broken, has nothing. There’s kind of no in-between with her. Like it’s one or the other and it’s extreme either way. Yeah, exactly. 

Ann: Okay, so she and Charles Manners are fucking around. And everyone knows newspapers are full of stories about Peg and Charlie. Do you want to share the story about the hilarious repartee in the theatre? 

Karyn: In the theatre, this is so good. Yeah. So, it’s like a few nights after this first night, Peg is at a show in the theatre with all her girls. Manners is there in the royal box with the Duchess, his wife, and these guys down below all started shouting at her. And they’re like, “Peg! Peg! Who lay with you last?” And then as she puts it, “I, with the greatest nonchalance, replied, Manners, you blaggards.” [laughs] The joke is so good that even the Duchess is laughing her ass off in the box, too, because she’s very chill and I think she’s probably fucking around as well. So, everyone thinks this is hilarious. So, it’s like no one’s the butt of the joke here. It’s great and everyone’s having such a good time. 

Ann: Everyone’s just having such a good time! 

Karyn: And it’s such good wordplay to like, honestly, fair play, Peg. 

Ann: Iconic, iconic. So, then she’s just like everything, again, she’s just like thriving, everything’s going great. And then October 1784, her business partner and best friend Sally Hayes died after a long, probably venereal illness. 

Karyn: Potentially. Poor Sally. Yeah, because she really was a proper friend to her. Like she never fell out with Sally. They were always pals. And like if they were going off on day trips together, it was with Sally. Like she was just a proper, like a good friend to her, yeah. 

Ann: So, at this point, like, I don’t know narratively in her life, but this is the part of the biography where Julie Peakman was talking about Peg. And this is part of her, like, optimism and sort of hopefulness and trusting. But she was devoted to rescuing unfortunate young women like she herself had been. So, sometimes that meant offering them jobs to work with her. Sometimes she would mediate a return to their families or husbands. 

Karyn: Yeah, she does talk about that a bit in her memoirs, because she’s kind of… I guess the point that she’s writing these things at, she’s at this stage, you know, a very kind of trying to explain herself. But she’s saying, you know, “And I know what I did was terrible,” and then she’ll go on and tell like the funniest story ever. And you’re like, “No, Peg, that was amazing.” And you’re like, “But there’s also all these good things that I did,” and she did have this really good heart, I think, and tried to look out for people. So, like, yeah, if girls were turning up on her doorstep looking to board with her, it’s like unless they were already in the trade, she wasn’t interested. And she was going to try and get them back with their families. And if they were like, “No, no, my family’s horrible.” She’d be like, “I’ll speak to them, and I’ll sort this out for you.” Like she didn’t try and lure people into her way of living at all. 

In her book, she does say, “I never in my life was an accessory or instrumental to the corruption of any girl, nor ever received in my house anyone who had not already been deluded,” is how she puts it. [laughs] So, like basically, she’s not interested in corrupting the young or anything like that. So, I do think she was trying to look out for people and for girls who she probably related to if they were having a tough time at a young age. She was like, “Don’t end up like me. Try and let’s get you sorted out. Let’s get you fixed up somewhere nice.” 

Ann: One sees sometimes in stories about, like, you know, brothel owners or whatever, there’s kind of like the kindly motherly figure who is kind of looking after everybody and she really was that. 

Karyn: She actually was, yeah. Because I guess, you know, it’s easy to think, “Oh, they were all these like, you know, mean bawds that were tricking girls up from the country and trapping them into this way of life. And like, no, there was obviously people like Peg on the scene too, who were trying to look out for people and not trying to lure anyone anywhere. They were, you know, she was doing her best, I think, by people as much as she could. 

Ann: Oh, I do want to mention that she– There was also like in terms of like sex work and brothels and whatever, like there had been a prostitute’s union. 

Karyn: Yeah! Love that! Unionized girls. 

Ann: Yeah, and we know Peg and Sally had attended at least one meeting of that. So, like, this was a proper business situation. Like, it wasn’t…

Karyn: Yeah, yeah. No, and she even refers to other women in the trade as “The sisterhood.” So, it does feel like they were a community, like, and they did try and look out for each other, it seems like, rather than be rivals. And obviously, there was a bit of sparring here and there with someone like Kitty. But I think when she actually had her own brothel and other women did too, they didn’t seem like they were in some kind of mad competition with each other. They were kind of trying to help each other, I think. 

Ann: And I feel that in the sisterhood of podcasters, I think… I’ve never encountered a… Like, everyone is so supportive and kind just in terms of podcasts supporting other podcasts. I find that that’s a similar, sort of like, we’re all just out here trying to figure out what the hell we’re doing. We’re all just we’re all just doing our best here. 

Karyn: Yeah, exactly. 

Ann: It’s like we’re not in competition with each other because it’s like, you know, we’re podcasters. It’s like we’re not broadcast television. Like, there’s not… People can listen to as many podcasts as they want. 

Karyn: Of course. 

Ann: Okay, so a guy named Barry Yelverton, which surprised me because Barry to me feels not like an oldy-time name.

Karyn: It really doesn’t. 

Ann: But… Barry. Anyway, Barry Yelverton proposed marriage to Peg. He was the second son of the chief baron of the Court of the Exchequer. So basically, he was going to inherit money and a title, probably, and Peg said no several times. But then eventually she’s like, “This will get me money so okay.” 

Karyn: Yeah, she says that the title of the “Honourable Mrs. Yelverton so tinkled in her ears” that she was like, “All right, fuck it. Let’s do this.” [laughs] 

Ann: So, she decided for the first time, although she’s been calling herself Mrs. Leeson for this whole time, really.

Karyn: A long time now, yeah. 

Ann: Because the father wouldn’t consent, so they had a super-secret, sexy marriage, wedding ceremony, much like you did, [both chuckle] in the Dublin equivalent of like a Las Vegas chapel. But pretty much right away, she was like, “Oh, no, this is a bad idea. This guy sucks.” 

Karyn: Yeah, he kind of cools off on her like, immediately and he was the one chasing her. But it is that classic thing where it’s like, well, now he’s got her and he’s like, “Mmm, yeah, I don’t know if I even like it that much.” It’s like, “Oh, dude, what are you wasting her time for?”

Ann: Yeah, exactly. So, the dad who was just like, did not support this. He’s like, “Peg, I’ll give you 500 guineas to dissolve the marriage.” And she’s like, “Deal. Deal.” 

Karyn: Yeah, nice one. She’s like, “Yep, this was a bad idea anyway. I’m out of here. Thank you, bye!”

Ann: Make some money on it. 

Karyn: For sure. Absolutely. 

Ann: And then I’ll mention also, Peg often supplied girls for parties at these. We talked about these various men’s secret societies, including the Anecdote Club of Free Brothers. Quite a name. 

Karyn: Yeah, I hadn’t heard of those guys. And some of them were genuinely just a very dry, like, dining club or something, and obviously they were fucking too. But like, yeah, not all of them, I guess, were up to absolute devilment and beating people up for no reason. So, some of them were just guys who just liked to drink and have a bit of sex. So, that’s fair enough, too.

Ann: And these guys are cool because they were so popular. The Anecdote Club of Free Brothers made her an honorary member and presented her with a body poem called “Guide to Joy,” written by Mrs. H of Drumcondra, who was one of the mistresses of Prinny. 

Karyn: He keeps popping up. [laughs] Yeah, and apparently this poem, “Guide to Joy,” was like an ode to the house on Pitt Street and just how great a house it was to go have sex in, basically, because Peg is amazing. 

Ann: I just love that they made her an honorary member here. And this is also where Julie Peakman mentioned Peg was known to enjoy reading body poetry as well as pornographic verse. This is like… One doesn’t often hear about– I’m sure lots of people, lots of genders have always enjoyed this sort of thing, but it’s not often ever written about women enjoying this. Like she had a collection of, like, pornography and she was just like, “You know what? I’m horny. And what do I want to read? Sex, erotica.” She’s never not thinking about sex, and that’s just her way. 

Karyn: It’s true. Her house is covered in paintings and prints of sexy stuff, too. Like, she’s just… Yeah, she’s into it. 

Ann: That’s… You do you, Peg. 

Karyn: Absolutely. [laughs]

Ann: I love her, and I am so happy you brought her into all of our lives, Karyn, by watching this random television show. [Karyn laughs] 

Okay, but then she’s like, at this point, she’s aging into her fifties, which she’s still Peg, but she’s like, you know, like a ballet dancer, there’s a shelf life on being a successful courtesan known for your looks. And so, she decided to build a retirement house. She hired builders to build this house in Blackrock. 

Karyn: Yeah, Blackrock, that’s fancy. It’s a fancy area.

Ann: So, building a house in Blackrock would be expensive? 

Karyn: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don’t know, would you even get to build a house in Blackrock now these days? [Ann chuckles] It’s one of these really lovely seaside towns, but yeah, very expensive to live in. 

Ann: Yeah. So, in this new era of her life, she re-embraced her lapsed Catholic religion. Did she write about this? That she tried to kill herself by drinking opium because she felt so guilty over her life’s path. 

Karyn: This is the thing. Yeah, so as she puts it, there’s a day where these two gentlemen come to see her, but she had read in the papers that they had refused to pay a man for some election advertisements they had put out. So, she berates them for this, but ends up being so wound up by the exchange that she starts to look at her own life and kind of wonder, “Well, who am I to give shit to these men when I’ve done all these terrible things?” And kind of puts herself into such a spin that she does end up in this kind of state of delirium. She says in a fit of delirium that she took four ounces of opium in an effort to end her life. But it doesn’t work. 

Ann: What it does do is it puts her in a stupor for 84 hours, a very specific and odd time. Not 72, but 84, so just over three days. And so, she wanted to repent, but she didn’t know how to do that. 

Karyn: Yeah, she’s kind of just flailing around, I think, because she has turned to religion, but she’s kind of like, “Well, what do I actually do? Other than pray, is there anything meaningful I can do to, like, to, I guess, yeah, recant all this stuff or repent?” 

Ann: And this is where she’s really cool and feels to me very contemporary, because she’s like, “Catholicism is not doing it for me.” She wrote, “All religions were alike to me. I would also worship the God of nature in spirit and in truth, no matter whether in a mosque, a meeting house, chapel, church, synagogue, bed or field.” So, she was just, like, spiritual, but not religious. She believed in charitable works rather than prayer. 

Karyn: Yeah, she kind of thought that was most likely the way to, kind of, make amends for the life she had led was to try and do something charitable. 

Ann: And so, she’s just like, “Okay, you know, I’m retiring from this life,” but she had no savings. She went to Blackrock, but debts mounted. And this is where she’s like, “Well, I’m going to blackmail my lovers and publish a multivolume memoir,” which is a great idea. 

Karyn: Yeah, honestly, good for her. Well, this is the thing, because she has all these IOUs and like promissory… Oh, it’s such a good idea because she literally has a stack of IOUs and promissory notes from all these men over the years. And of course, now that she’s retired and repented, she’s like, “Hey, can I have my money?” And they’re like, “No, what are you going to do about it?” Because she’s not in a position anymore to really, as far as they can tell, she’s not in a position to really do anything or like tell anyone else in town that actually “Don’t let this guy into your house because he’s not going to fucking pay up and he hasn’t paid me for the last 10 years,” whatever. So, it’s like it’s so much money. It’s like a few thousand pounds, I think, at the time that she’s owed by all these different people. Again, this is like the naive optimism of her, that she thought that that they were going to pay up after all these years and she has these notes and half of them weren’t even signed. Like, it was just a mess. Like she just was never good with finances or saving or just that bit of thinking ahead in terms of economics. Yeah. 

Ann: Yeah, it’s just too bad. None of her long-term lovers were like an accountant or something. 

Karyn: Right. [laughs] Always with the soldiers! [laughs] 

Ann: So, she publishes the first two volumes in 1795 and then like, again, a relatable queen. She gets the money from them and she’s like, “Great, I’m now going to spend that money.”

Karyn: [laughs] Yeah, just immediately.

Ann: “I want to buy a new dress and some earrings. Oh, wait, it’s gone. Oh! Oooh.” So, she again pawns most of her belongings. Creditors caught up with her and she was arrested for her debts. She wound up renting out her Blackrock house to a tenant. And at some point, she acquired a spiritual advisor called Mr. O’Falvey. 

Karyn: Yeah, the O’Falveys, I think, were friends of hers from Kerry. But yeah, I think Mrs. O’Falvey before she got married to Mr. O’Falvey, she actually lived in Peg’s house with her. She was like this wife who had a terrible husband, so she worked with Peg for a while to try and get some money together. And Peg, like, was a proper good friend to her and then she ended up in Kerry, married to Mr. O’Falvey. So, the O’Falvey’s kind of know Peg with quite some time. So yeah, they continued to be good to her, I believe, in the kind of years that followed.

Ann: Just finding her a cheaper place to rent and stuff. 

Listeners, things get grim. So, she started to work on her third volume of memoirs. She stayed in most of the time. She became like, again, relatable, just sort of like a homebody. Like she had such an extroverted life of parties and being with people, and now she’s just finding some joy and quiet in being at home. Anyway, she went out for a walk one day, came home and found out again one of her servants had stolen all her stuff. 

Karyn: God damn it. [laughs] It’s such a disaster every time this happens, like, because it just… They really leave her with nothing, like, every time. It’s terrible. 

Ann: Okay, and then another time she’s out walking with her companion at night. They were overtaken by highwaymen who took all the money that they had on them. 

Karyn: Yeah, like every time she managed to because like some old friends do come through for her here and there where she’ll kind of scrape a bit of money together. But then, yeah, something happens every time that just messes it all up for her again. 

Ann: And then, I mean, trigger warning for sexual assault. She went to visit her friend, Mrs. H, who the writer of the body poem, you might recall, the former mistress of Prinny in Drumcondra when they were walking home at dusk. Ruffians attacked Peg and her companion, not Mrs. H but I think her just, like, friend or her servant who was with her. 

Karyn: Yeah, Margaret Collins was her friend at this point that she was just living within the house, and they had walked to Drumcondra to see Mrs. H. So, on the way home, they were set upon by these fuckers. 

Ann: By these fuckers who assaulted them. And then Mrs. H took them back and then they both started showing signs of a disease that they clearly had caught from the attackers. 

Karyn: Yeah. And as Peg kind of even says, it’s like in all her professional career, she never had like venereal disease ever or syphilis, nothing, she was always good to go. And now at this point in her life, she has contracted, they reckon, syphilis. 

Ann: Yeah, so she’s put on what people did then, which is a course of mercury treatments. 

Karyn: Yikes.

Ann: Which is something like it’s it helps to it makes you sweat and then you sweat out the… I don’t know. But that’s what was given to people. 

Karyn: I’m not– I don’t know what the logic is. I don’t know. But it sounds rough because she says that they were reduced to skeletons in the kind of three months or however long it took to run the course of treatments. 

Ann: I want to say that Mary Queen of Scots’s husband, Darnley, when he was getting his mercury treatment for syphilis, he was in like a mercury bathtub or something. 

Karyn: Oh wow, okay. [laughs]

Ann: It did something. It might be like, you know, chemotherapy can help kill cancer cells, but also like really affects your body in other ways. It might be like… Mercury gets rid of the syphilis but also kills you. 

Karyn: Exactly. Yeah, you’re cured because you’re dead. Yeah, I don’t know that works. 

Ann: Which is not to say chemotherapy kills you. I’m just saying that like a thing that can get rid of a disease…

Karyn: Might seem like it’s making things worse or just there’ll be other side effects. But it does seem like they do kind of get over the disease. But I think at this point, her health is just in such a bad way, yeah. 

Ann: But then she gets around a course of Dr. James’s Fever Powder, which Julie Peakman theorizes is what actually killed her. 

Karyn: Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, because she does write that she has a fever and she’s taking this powder and she reckons it has broken it. But yeah…

Ann: It did break the fever. So again, like Dr. James’s fever powder, which I want to say was cocaine, I don’t know. 

Karyn: Probably. [laughs]

Ann: It broke her fever. But I think she was just so broken down from everything. Her health deteriorated in all kinds of different ways. And Peg Plunkett, the world, you know, became a less fun place, a less cool place. She died March 22, 1797, aged, probably, around 55. 

Karyn: Okay, yeah. See, yeah, in my book, it’s like “She was aged 70. But it’s like, okay, but was she though? Because as you say, were there men throwing themselves at her when she was 60? I mean, maybe we know she was hot. Was she still hot in her sixties? She could well have been. But…

Ann: Yeah, Julie Peakman, at the very beginning of the book, she’s like, “What year was she born? Let’s investigate.” And just looking at certain people who she met in certain places, she was when certain things were happening. So, I think it said when she died, people were like, “Oh wow, she looks rough. I approximate her age is 75. Therefore, that is her age.” 

Karyn: Oh! That makes sense. 

Ann: But it could just be she just looked old because of everything she went through.

Karyn: She did. Yeah, because especially when she ended up in that debtors’ prison for a while, like it really did a number on her looks because she actually ran into a former lover who was also thrown into the debtors’ prison, and he didn’t recognize her at first when he saw her. It was only kind of when he was up close, he was like, “Oh my god, Peg, it’s you.” So, she definitely looked, I would say, drastically different in those later years of her life. 

Ann: I think another way that Julie Peakman figured out the birth age was when she started having children and, like, when she was married and like when where it’s just like, “Well, it’s possible she had a child when she was 57, but it’s more likely she was 37.” Like that sort of thing. 

Karyn: Yeah, that’s fair. Yeah. 

Ann: But you know what? She’s ageless. What was her age? I don’t know. 

Karyn: Who cares? [chuckles]

Ann: So, after paying off her debts, there’s no money left for a funeral, but the grocer paid for the funeral, along with some of her friends that she still had at this point in her life. 

Karyn: Oh, yeah. Oh, this was the grocer that called in a debt. That was the one that landed her landed her into the debtors’ prison. 

Ann: So, he’s feeling bad there. 

Karyn: Yeah, he should. [laughs] 

Ann: So, her death was reported in the newspapers when she died because she had been such a famous person for such a long time. So, one of the newspapers said, “Mrs. Margaret Leeson, alias, the famous Peg Plunkett, died in…” [hesitates] Fown Street.

Karyn: Oh, Fownes Street. 

Ann: “Died in Fownes Street Dublin yesterday night. This lady was one of the most celebrated courtesans in Europe.” And I think it went on to say, “And she got a pension from the government,” which she clearly did not. I think she told people she did. And maybe she thought she did. 

Karyn: I think she thought she did, to be honest. Yeah, just even the way she kind of writes about it in the book. She only briefly mentions it but as far as she’s concerned, yeah, she’s got this pension. 

Ann: Just money was always there, and she’s never thought about it. That’s like so many celebrities who it turns out that their accountants have been stealing from them for decades and they’re like, “Oh, I don’t know.”

Karyn: Yeah. The business managers, they’ve been fleeced and they’re like, “Wait, how did this happen?” So, it is… Yeah, I guess it’s something that not everyone just has the kind of skill set to stay on top of. 

Ann: And then she was interred in St. James’s churchyard. And so, you wouldn’t know this because this is in the book I read, which is not around me or else I would get the specifics about it. So, the author, Julie Peakman, wanted to go and pay her tributes and like to see the grave. But then she went to the churchyard and where people from that era were buried, it’s like locked away behind a gate. So, then she’s like, “Does anyone know where who can open this gate?” And they’re like, “Oh, Seamus, He’s down at the pub.” So, then she goes down to the pub and she asks the barman. 

Karyn: Classic Seamus.

Ann: She’s like, ”Is Seamus here?” And bartenders like, “I’m Seamus!” [both laugh] And then and then he goes and like unlocks the gate for her. And there’s a guy suddenly appears who’s like, “I’ve been waiting to get into this graveyard for 25 years. I’ve been petitioning to open it.” So then, her and this guy both go to the graveyard. [Karyn laughs] And he’s like, “Eugh, is this cool? I don’t know.” And then the guy who was there is like, “Well, who are you looking for with Catholic or Protestant?” And she’s like “Catholic.” And he’s like, “Catholics,” I forget what it is. It’s like they’re on the side, process of this side. But eventually, she wasn’t able to find the grave, ultimately, because I think it’s just wear and tear, like it’s, you know, overgrowth and things. 

Karyn: I feel I think I read somewhere that it was like an unmarked grave even. So, there may not even have been money for a headstone or anything. And I guess, yeah, it was so long ago… Yeah, I don’t know, I guess with graveyards like that, they’re that old, they get so overgrown and it’s unmarked. 

Ann: Right. Like it’s just locked all the time. Yeah. 

Karyn: And there’s literally nothing to mark where it was. So, yeah, I guess that’s such a shame, though, that there isn’t somewhere. 

Ann: I know! That’s what I wanted. And I understand Julie Peakman after doing this biography is like, “I want to see her grave. I want to see where she’s commemorated.” And so, I really liked it. My first clue that this was going to be part of that book was in her acknowledgments at the beginning. She’s like, “I want to thank Seamus, who unlocked the gate for me.” [both chuckle] Because I think she was going to hop the fence. She’s like, “I want to get in this grave.”

Karyn: “I need in. Let me in!”

Ann: Oh, yeah. But then she also told the guy, the other guy who was there. She’s like, “Let’s tell each other when we leave so we don’t accidentally lock one of us in here.” 

Karyn: Oh, good shout. 

Ann: Yeah. There’s a story worthy of Peg Plunkett, really. So, there’s not… There’s a statue for that balloon guy. But Peg Plunkett, nothing, as far as I know. 

Karyn: Nothing. Not a goddamn thing. She actually calls him Mr. Balloon as well in the memoir. It’s very funny. [laughs]

Ann: There’s another guy who she’s involved with, who she called, like, the Chimney Guy. And he invents some sort of like, dude, chimney flume or something. 

Karyn: [laughs] Oh, she’s so fun. There was also kind of like her. She had her own version of TripAdvisor, where, like, if she went somewhere and felt like her friends and her weren’t being treated properly, she’d write something on the window of the building with her diamond ring. And she called it her diamond pencil. So, she was like, “I left a missive with my diamond pencil.” So, there was a place run by a man called Broadhead and she wrote on his parlour window, she scratched in “Not Broadhead, but Flathead, you surely should be as you’re really a flat in the highest degree.” [chuckles]

Ann: That’s a lot to carve with a ring! 

Karyn: Isn’t it? It’s so much! But she did it with her little diamond pencil. [laughs] 

Ann: Iconic. Augh! Peg Plunkett. The time has come for us to score her on our four-point scale, the Scandaliciousness Scale. I have high hopes for her… I think she’s going to score pretty high in some categories. We’ll see. Okay. 

So, the first category is, I think, her, where she’s going to score the top. So, it’s all scores from 0 to 10. So, Scandaliciousness. How scandalous is her story or what she’s seen by people in her time, like the people around her, on a 0 to 10? 

Karyn: I see. In terms of I think she’s probably more scandalous now than she was then because, at the time, prostitution was just part of life in Georgian Dublin. Like, it wasn’t a taboo or anything. It was just, yeah, look at all these courtesans, aren’t they great? So, if anything, she’s probably more scandalous now. But I mean, I also feel like she’s got guys jumping in and out of windows. Like she’s always up to something. She’s just… She is rife for a scandal. 

Ann: Well, and if it is thinking about her, like, as a young person, like her family disowned her basically because they felt she was scandalous for– but that was just for living in that house. But I mean, she ran off to try and get married when she was 15. That is funny because she was scandalous to some people but then she– And her establishment was so ingrained with the upper echelons of society, like the fact that that court case found for her and not for the English actress, like everyone respected her. So, it’s tricky because she was scandalous in some ways, but not in other ways. 

Karyn: But she wasn’t like on the fringes for being scandalous. It was like they loved her because she was scandalous, I suppose. 

Ann: Well, that’s the thing. So that doesn’t mean she wasn’t scandalous. They’re just like… 

Karyn: [laughs] It’s going to depend on your definition of scandal and also the time that we’re talking. 

Ann: She’s scandalous, but we don’t mind. 

Karyn: Yeah, “We like it. That’s what we like about her.” [laughs]

Ann: I think I think she gets a very high score here, like on a 0 to 10 for Scandaliciousness, even just the juiciness of her memoirs, like the stories she shares, bribing all the servants, like, sneaking out around with all these guys. 

Karyn: It’s surely a high score. I mean, is it a 9? Is it a 10? I’m not sure what kind of scores people like her tend to rack up on the show but I mean…

Ann: I’m going to give her a 9, I think, just because of what you said, because she wasn’t… Her family disowned her but all of Dublin loved her. She wasn’t, like, run out of town for being scandalous. So, I’m taking one point off for the fact that everyone was kind of cool with it. 

Karyn: That seems fair. I think, yeah. She loses the point just because, well, everyone loved her, which isn’t really scandalous in itself. But yeah, but she was, that’s the thing. Yeah, I think 9 is fair. 

Ann: Definitely high up. The next category is Scheminess. Coming up, like, a person with a plan, always landing on her feet, the resiliency, I think, would land in here. Like her schemes are not always good…

Karyn: True.

Ann: But she always had one. Well, and just the scheminess of, like, the Jackson and Lawless era. 

Karyn: Just the thought of these guys just jumping in and out of a parlour window to come bang her like, well, Leeson is out in Kildare is so funny. It’s so good.

Ann: She was she really came up with some good strategies during that era. 

Karyn: She did. If it came to getting some dick, she had a plan, and it was if it came to looking after herself and maybe saving some money, she never had a plan. So, in certain areas, she was superb at scheming. And in others, very much not so. 

Ann: So again, it’s a tricky thing. But I think she was definitely more scheming than not. Yeah, that might be another 9, maybe. 

Karyn: Okay, yeah. 

Ann: Just always kept like the pivots. She’s like, “Okay, you know, I’m tired of this guy so I’m going to switch to this guy. I’ll try living in London. Nope. Tired of that. I’ll move back here. I’ll open a brothel.” Like she’s always coming up with a scheme. 

Karyn: She does always have something up her sleeve.

Ann: She does. 

The next category is Significance and that can be to history in general. I mean, she wasn’t like a politician who passed a great law or whatever, but I think she was very significant at the time. Like, the fact… Not everybody’s death is mentioned in the newspaper. 

Karyn: Well, that’s true. Yeah. And I think, yeah, she’s someone who at the time was obviously very, very famous. But now people don’t know who she is; she’s just not someone you hear about, really. 

Ann: And that’s tricky. And there are a number of people like that I’ve covered on the podcast where they’re they were so incredibly famous and influential at the time. And then as soon as they died, it’s like they never existed. They were significant, but they’re not now. I don’t… I don’t know. 

Karyn: First woman in Dublin to wear a bell hoop, that is something. [Ann laughs] In terms of fashion history, she’s up there. 

Ann: That’s true. The effect she had on the economy of Dublin, like, she kept those businesses going. 

Karyn: Yeah, she was keeping these textile boys in business for sure. [laughs]

Ann: The significance of making fun of Prinny to his face, that’s very significant to me. 

Karyn: I love that. I just love that so much about her. 

Ann: Hmm. It’s tricky. I’m going to propose a 5 because she was so significant at the time. She was such a crucial part of the ecosystem but then she was forgotten so much. That’s why I’m like I’m balancing a 0 with a 10, and that’s where I land on 5. 

Karyn: [laughs] Do we just go 5? Yeah, I think split the difference. 

And then the final category is what I call the Sexism Bonus which is, how much more could she have accomplished were it not for sexism? Which is… This is a category that people get high scores in if it’s like… She could have, I don’t know, it’s like a person that she wanted to go to medical school, but she couldn’t. And so, she had to stay home and watch children. So, I think I mean… If she didn’t have to have these men as her champions, like if she had been able to get a job and have her own money, her life would have been very different. But I would say the sexism didn’t really get in her way, though. 

Karyn: No, if anything, I kind of feel like, well, you know, if she wasn’t pregnant all the time, what else could she achieve? But it would just be having more sex with more guys, really, to be honest. Like, she was just there for a good time. She was a party girl, you know? 

Ann: Yeah, I don’t think sexism really, like, other than culturally, the fact that women can’t do as much stuff like, that didn’t really get in her way. 

Karyn: No. It doesn’t seem like it stood in front of anything that she was particularly interested in and felt like she was barred from, you know? 

Ann: I think maybe. I don’t know… Hmm. And there have been other people similar to her, like Lola Montez comes to mind. She got a very low Sexism score because she was just like, “Okay, this is what the world is like. Okay, here we go.” 

Karyn: Yeah, “I’ll just figure it out. It’s fine. Don’t worry about it.” 

Ann: So, it might be something like, I don’t know, like a 2 or a 3 or something. 

Karyn: I was thinking 3. 

Ann: Yeah. So, let me see. I will officially add this up on a calculator. I have long stopped trying to do this in my head because that’s like, Peg Plunkett… Mathematics. 

Karyn: Oh, absolutely not. I just panic when someone says numbers to me. 

Ann: So, her total score is a 26 out of 40, which I think lands her around the neighbourhood. Like, Lola Montez got a 23, for instance. 

Karyn: Okay! Okay. 

Ann: So, she’s in that neighbourhood. There’s other people… I’m trying to see who, I don’t know… I did an episode about someone called Rachel, who this really reminded me of. Her name is just Rachel. One name only. 

Karyn: Amazing. Oh, like Madonna or Cher, I love it. 

Ann: Rachel, whose story is actually quite similar to this. She was an actress in France, and she fucked everybody. [both laugh] When she…

Karyn: See, that’s the thing. I think it’s the girls who were primarily interested in just having sex. It’s like, that’s all they want, they’re having a good time, and this is the neighbourhood she’s in.

Ann: One of the things that Rachel did. She was very pregnant at one point, by one of her many lovers, and she was on a train trip, she was like touring England, I think. And she met two men on the train who were cousins and then they both became her lovers, too. Like, it’s a really similar vibe. Yeah.

Karyn: [laughs] Very similar. 

Ann: I’m putting their names next to each other on my document because it’s that’s perfect. Rachel and Peg Plunkett, I think, would have been…

Karyn: That’s the girl gang. 

Ann: They would have been great friends. They would have been probably fighting over lovers but ultimately…

Karyn: Oh, probably. 

Ann: Ultimately having a nice time together. 

Karyn: Definitely. 

Ann: Karyn, can you please tell everybody about your podcast you do, and other activities you do, and where they can follow you on social media and things like that? 

Karyn: Sure! So, I co-host Double Love, which is the Sweet Valley High podcast. I co-hosted with Anna Carey, and we just chat about a Sweet Valley High book episode by episode. So, each episode covers a particular book. Or actually, at this stage, we’re kind of doing half a book per episode because we just end up getting so involved and the books get a bit more convoluted as the series goes on, too. So, everything’s a two-parter at the minute. So, it kind of gives us more time as well to really dig into all the madness that goes on in that series. 

Ann: And you’re into the hundreds. Like, I don’t know. 

Karyn: We’re into the hundreds. Yeah, I think we just finished Book 114. So, it’s a massive back catalogue at the minute. [chuckles] But yeah, so we just chat about Sweet Valley High. We have great fun doing it. We’re kind of we’re yeah, we’re all over social media pretty much at this stage @SVHPodcast on any of the social media sites. If you just search Double Love on any podcast app, you’d find us there too. 

But yeah, it’s great fun. Like we just… It’s such a mad series. Like it is, I suppose, for people who don’t know, it’s about these twins in California, a fictional town in California called Sweet Valley, identical twins, Jessica and Elizabeth Wakefield. They’re the most gorgeous girls in the world, bit like Peg, everyone loves them all the time, wherever they go, boys are falling over themselves to get to know them. Whereas one is very studious and serious, the other, Jessica, is the wild party girl, who is also kind of a monster in certain books too. But their adventures just get more and more ridiculous as the series goes on and we just have great fun with it. There’s been a werewolf series; there’s been evil twins turning up to try and murder them; there’s car crashes; there’s amnesia. All your kind of classic soap opera bits and pieces kind of find their way in there eventually. [chuckles] But yeah, it’s great fun. 

Ann: And we are going to take this to The After Show. If people want to hear more about Sweet Valley High and that sort of thing. But I will say that you don’t have to have read the books to enjoy your podcast because it’s just the two of you saying what happens. 

Karyn: Pretty much. [giggles]

Ann: And sometimes I’m left in such suspense. I’m like, “What is going to happen next?!” And I have to, like, look up a book set in a race to be like, “I need to know.”

Karyn: [laughs] I need answers! 

Ann: I’m not going to read the book, but I need to know! 

Karyn: Just tell me! [laughs]

Ann: And then your graphic design business… 

Karyn: Yeah, I’m a freelance graphic designer. KarynMoynihan.com is my probably quite out-of-date website at this stage, but that’s where it is, where you can find me and contact me if you need to. Yeah, I just do freelance design, that’s my main job. My real-life job is graphic design, which I do enjoy. 

Ann: And I mean, you’ve done such a brilliant job with the various… [laughs softly] Vulgar History commissions, the increasingly unhinged things I request of you. 

Karyn: [giggles] I love those jobs, though. They’re so great because you always have such a clear idea of what you want. You’re like, “Okay, I kind of want this sort of a reference, like, with this title or this particular set of words.” And I’m like, “Okay, I know what you’re going for here, this is great.” Like, you always have some kind of idea of what you want, which is perfect, because at least I know what kind of reference I’m trying to hit here. They’re always really fun jobs. I really love doing them. 

Ann: Oh, good. Well, and that’s where I appreciate you as the graphic designer, because the people who I work with for the Vulgar History merch, they’re all people who I can be like, “Do you know…?” Like, you know my references. Another graphic designer may be like, “What are you talking about?” [Karyn laughs] 

Okay, well Karyn, thank you so much. I knew this would be a lengthy episode. We had to get all the hits! 

Karyn: This is the thing, you know, and I’m used to long episodes with Double Love. 

Ann: That’s what I thought when I invited you. 

Karyn: They get quite long, yeah. [chuckles]

Ann: You’re used to it. But yeah, I mean, we couldn’t leave out any of the anecdotes. 

Karyn: This is the thing. She’s just she’s so funny and so much good fun stuff happens in her story that you jus can’t leave anything out. And I feel like we probably did miss a few things, but like she’s just the best. I love her so much. 

Ann: She’s amazing. 

Well, thank you so much for joining me. And then listeners, if you want to hear more of me and Karyn, then hop over to Patreon where we’re going to have an After Show discussion that we’re going to record next. Anyway, thank you so much, Karyn. 

Karyn: Thank you for having me. This was great fun!  

—————

So, I had said in the introduction to this episode that there was one more joke on Karyn’s design of a Peg Plunkett T-shirt that I didn’t want to say because I didn’t want to spoil. But what it is, is it’s a shout-out to the way the Peg Plunkett antagonized Prinny, George, the Prince of Wales, AKA the husband of Caroline of Brunswick. So, one more line of this beautiful Peg Plunkett design. It does say “Official irritant of HRH George, Prince of Wales.” So, that’s on there, too, as well. 

Again, you can pick up the Peg Plunkett design as well as any of our other wonderful Vulgar History merch. Several of the designs were also designed by Karyn Moynihan. You can get those if you’re in the US, go to VulgarHistory.com/Store and if you’re in anywhere other than the US, go to VulgarHistory.Redbubble. com. And show your love for this iconic Irish woman. You know, as long as there’s not a statue of her, at least we can have people walking around wearing her profile and name on T-shirts or pins or magnets or mugs or whatever you want to get, frankly. 

We scored Peg on the Scandaliciousness Scale and I need to check in with you because we also have Nothing But Net, which is a special scale we’re doing for Season Seven to see how all these people in the most unlikely of ways connect back to Marie Antoinette, who is the patron saint of this season, How Do You Solve A Problem Like Marie Antoinette? So, Peg. At first, I thought it was going to be through Prinny because Prinny, George, the Prince of Wales, his mother is Queen Charlotte from Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story and Queen Charlotte from Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story, was pen pals with Marie Antoinette. So, I thought, okay, well, you know, Peg saw him and that was his mom, and then the mom knew Marie Antoinette. But there’s an even closer connection because Peg’s lover, Handsome Jack, hung out at the court of Marie Antoinette. So, he knew Marie Antoinette directly. So, from Peg to Handsome Jack, from Handsome Jack to Marie Antoinette is two degrees of separation between these two iconic 18th-century women. 

And I have just a few things that I like to say as we wrap up these episodes, I don’t know if you used to watch… It depends on your age, but if you used to watch Mister Roger’s Neighbourhood, which is a show that was on right up through, into the ‘80s, it was on when I was a young child. And part of what he did every episode is he would come in and from outside and he would change out of one sweater into his inside cardigan, change his shoes for his slippers. And at the end, I think he did the reverse; I think he switched back in his outside cardigan and into his shoes. And it was just sort of soothing that you knew that the same things were going to happen every episode. And I think that’s what this podcast has developed, where it’s like at the end of each episode, I give you a bunch of information and it is information that is good for everyone to know. 

So first of all, we have a Patreon for this podcast, the Vulgar History podcast/myself, Ann Foster, as a person. So, if you want to get early, ad-free access to all the episodes of this podcast, then you can support me on Patreon for as little as $1/month. So, you go to Patreon.com/AnnFosterWriter and then you just say how much you want to pledge. And so, anyone who pledges $1 or more per month, you get the early, ad-free access to all episodes of this podcast, and that’s going back, it’s retroactive so you can use the feed there to listen to the older episode without the advertising break. 

If you want to pledge $5 or more a month on there, you get access, the early, ad-free access, as well as bonus episodes. So, things like The After Show that I recorded with Karyn Moynihan, where we talk about Irish history, and we talk about Sweet Valley High. As long as this three-part saga was, there was more stuff that I wanted to talk to her about and that’s all in The After Show. I also have recorded The After Show with a few other people, including Allison Epstein, there’s an After Show with her. 

And then we also have, for the $5 or more Patreon, you have access to our Discord server, which is a happening place. I love it, I check it… 12 times a day just to see what people are talking about there. People are sharing about costume dramas that they’ve seen or if they go on trips and they see things that are mentioned in the podcast. It’s just a great way for you, the Tits Out Brigade, to get to chat with each other. And also, I’m there and Lana is there. Lana Wood Johnson, friend of the podcast, frequent co-host. Anyway, so it’s just like a group chat. So, that’s available to people who join the Patreon for $5 or more a month. And those people also get access to Vulgarpiece Theatre, which is where I talk about costume dramas with Allison Epstein and Lana Johnson. And we’re on a summer hiatus/I’m writing a book hiatus right now from Vulgarpiece Theatre but there will be new episodes again in the fall and this is a great time to join the Patreon and just catch up. 

Or if you want to join the Patreon, you can get a free 7-day trial at that $5 level, but it’s free. So, you can just like binge everything you want and then just like peace out. I respect it if you just want to kind of like have a little taste. That’s fine, too. You can also join the Patreon for free, where you can see some stuff that I post there, just pictures of people from the episodes or just, like, news and updates and things that I see. So, there’s something for everyone on the Patreon whether you want to pay for it or not. It’s just sort of a… That’s kind of the Vulgar History community is sort of… I’m trying to gently, like a sheepdog, nudge more people over in that direction, because I have been doing so much engagement on Instagram, but Instagram has not been sharing my content as widely as it used to. And so, I like to have content where the people who want to see it actually see it. 

That being said, I am on Instagram [chuckles] @VulgarHistoryPod, and my DMs are open. You can always, if you have feedback or comments, or you want to send me pictures of your trips, you’ve been to places that people went to on the podcast, or if you have a suggestion of a Peg Plunkett-type person from the country that you’re from? Let me know that as well. You can send me DMs on Instagram. And also, I put updates there too. It’s just sometimes people don’t see them. 

Anyway, you can also contact me via the website, which is VulgarHistory.com. There’s like a “Contact” button there and so that opens a form where you can send me feedback that way as well. 

And… But wait, there’s more because we have a brand partner, which is Common Era Jewellery. So Common Era Jewellery is a 100% woman-owned business that makes beautiful – it’s a small business, I think there’s two people working in it – and what they do is they make beautiful jewellery, really quality jewellery that is inspired by women from history, as well as female figures from classical mythology. So, there’s Hecate, is that like the goddess of witches or something like that? I saw that one of our Vulgar History listeners had recently got the Hecate ring from Common Era Jewellery. I just don’t know how to pronounce [phonetic] Hek-ah-tee from I, Claudius. I don’t know if that’s how it’s said. It may be [ph.] Hek-at, anyway. But there’s also other figures like Clytemnestra is there. If you love I, Claudius, like I do, Livia is there, Agrippina is there. The designs inspired by them are available through Common Era Jewellery. Whatever you buy from there, Vulgar History listeners always get 15 percent off all items from Common Era by going to CommonEra.com/Vulgar or using code ‘VULGAR’ at checkout. In that Mister Rogers way, I’m saying things out of order and it’s throwing me. I hope it’s not throwing you. I just want to make sure I don’t forget to say anything. 

The last thing I’m going to say is that also the Vulgar History ecosystem, ever-expanding, and we have a Substack now, which is like a newsletter. So, when you sign up for it, you just get every week a newsletter from me, which at the moment, I’m sharing these essays about women from history. It’s not… It doesn’t always match one-for-one with who the podcast is. But that week, these are some essays about other people. Currently, I’m doing a series called “Tudor? I Hardly Knew Her,” where I’m talking about women of Tudor history. And so, you can join that by going to VulgarHistory.Substack.com and that’s free. 

So, yeah. Next week, the Season Seven continues. I’m not going anywhere, except I am. But I’ll tell you about that in a few weeks. This podcast is not going anywhere. Next week, we’re going to be talking about some American history again, specifically the American saga of an Indigenous woman who was around during the time of the American Revolution and what her experience of that was like. So, stay tuned for that next week. Until then, my friends, keep your pants on and your tits out! 

Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Ann Foster, that’s me! The editor is Cristina Lumague. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History show image is by Deborah Wong. Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at VulgarHistory.com. 

References:

Peg Plunkett: Memoirs of a Whore by Julie Peakman

Memoirs of Mrs. Margaret Leeson by Peg Plunkett aka Mrs. Leeson

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